S&l ??

[Robert T.]

I do not know if it has been mentioned here, but it seems that the swords were simply welded to a regular oaks set...?
____________
Robert

[juoneen]

Like in leroys comments in #67 ;some more speckling on swords and leaves. These have been deemed fakes, so why would they have the speckling , is that a sign of a fake or an original? These are marked 900 and 21

[juoneen]

[WARLORD]

"Wouldn't that require at least some kind of writing on it so the to be trained soldier could put a name to the badge?" The one I bought from the inteligence officer, Chessman, had nothing on it. He was a rather unpleasant man, and I am sure he was like it in the Army. These were as he said assembled for their reference. He had notes which I saw but were still as he saw it "secret".

[WARLORD]

After posting, saw the Oakes and Swords. David Littlejohn has a set in his collection. This set with cross has a worn ribbon and black ties.

The OBVERSE has a matt finish to the fields with burnished high lights, the reverse has a dark patina with sighns of speckling. Speclining is a form of patina that occurs naturaly. It is to do with the molecular struckture of the silver. It can be found widly on coins. It is encountered on those of Gerorge II. THUS THIS IS NO SIGNE OF A FAKE.

[Dietrich Maerz]

High grades apparently available for commercial purchase, against the "rules".

That is not something exiting at all. Rules were broken all over the place and if the boards were made shortly after the war (which I think) - well, what rule to brake were there?

And the RK's, the RK's..........what on earth to say?

I still have to understand what is so earthshaking about this? Let's assume that the boards were made by Lüdenscheid employess of the numerous companies. They basically raided the companies and put on what they found. So S&L had some A-Types left. Why they didn't use or had (if that theory is a good one ...) any 935-4 or 800-4 is anybodies guess.
Oaks and Swords from Lüdenscheid? What else is new? S&L has the oaks in its catalog and it is known that they produced both. It is quite natural to find some in May 45 (or later and later ...) in that town.

I can't comment on the other badges but I personally think that a very random array of miscellaneous badges and orders - most likely done in the confusion of 45 plus should have no impact on any production time line, introduction of LDO or PKZ numbers.

The more so since nobody REALLY knows when this board (or others ) were made.

Dietrich

[WARLORD]

The most important thing is - we have a snap shot of what was avalable at the time line 1945. As a badge collector the badges shown follow the types that were sold in the 1950 period to David Littlejohn and Col Dodkins. The board has provanance to the ending of the war. It has been untouched, thus we have to accept it as a base for what was there.

Detrick point, "They basically raided the companies and put on what they found. So S&L had some A-Types left. Why they didn't use or had (if that theory is a good one ...) any 935-4 or 800-4 is anybodies guess.
Oaks and Swords from Lüdenscheid? What else is new? S&L has the oaks in its catalog and it is known that they produced both. It is quite natural to find some in May 45 (or later and later ...) in that town." IS SOLID. They used what was found. This explains things that up till now by some have been thought to be fakes. Grades not issuded. They were in store because they were not called for.

So we now have Retired pilots badge a form I was personally only happy with. These are extreemly rare. Confirmed on the board. We could go on.

The big thing would be to try and collate what was on the boards so we have the firm evidence preserved.

[Leroy]

Good morning, Dietrich,

What I was trying to convey was that these boards present to us a
"snaphot" (as Warlord just said) of what was really done, as opposed to the opinions and theories which have dominated this field for years.

The commercial availability of higher grades of the Ritterkreuz (as illustrated by Manteuffel's set) FOLLOWING the supposed "ban" can only mean that the "ban" was either not enforced or didn't apply to entitled recipients. That's an interesting point.

There are badges here which fly in the face of what has been accepted as "real". Maybe we shouldn't be so absolute.........

The use of PKZ numbers on early pieces MAY shed some light we didn't have before on the date of introduction. Of course, it is POSSIBLE that the early SK piece had a pin added from existing stock later. We won't know until and unless we have a chance to see it in much better photographs. From the appearance of the back of the board, it seems to have a pin and catch identical to the other SK's (ones which were long ago documented as correct). Coincidence? Maybe.

The RK's? As you say...who knows? Seems odd that if the PKZ was handing out flawed pieces to recipients over a year before that these unflawed versions would be available, and in quantity (based on Dave-B's almost identical find years ago). Maybe a "stash" at S&L (because of the attached Oaks and O&S) of sets intended for commercial sale? Maybe most of the 935-4's and 800-4's were already shipped out. You saw a mint 800-4 at the MAX, in its case. What did you really think?

Because the odds, at this late date, of confirming information from real people who were there, are so bad, we should welcome the "time machine" these boards give us. That "personal history" has been tenuous, at best,and more likely unreliable, for some time now. I wish I could capture all the images from the "emedals" site before they are gone, but I don't know how. I wish someone here, who is on good terms with the dealer, could prevail upon him for detailed photos, measurements, etc. of all the pieces.

The whole point of this "exercise" is that we don't know everything and, in fact, are now confronted with pretty good evidence that many things we believed about certain awards, and about the system in general, need to be re-evaluated. The routine condemnation of certain pieces should be questioned more intently. I know, personally, that you are open to this and welcome new information.

What has surprised me most about this thread is the lack of comment of the supposed "specialists" we always hear from when a particular badge is discussed. Surely not all of them are on holiday or have accidently missed this thread. My belief is that there are some "red faces" out there.

Regards,
Leroy

[Dietrich Maerz]

The most important thing is - we have a snap shot of what was avalable at the time line 1945. As a badge collector the badges shown follow the types that were sold in the 1950 period to David Littlejohn and Col Dodkins. The board has provanance to the ending of the war. It has been untouched, thus we have to accept it as a base for what was there.

Detrick point, "They basically raided the companies and put on what they found. So S&L had some A-Types left. Why they didn't use or had (if that theory is a good one ...) any 935-4 or 800-4 is anybodies guess.
Oaks and Swords from Lüdenscheid? What else is new? S&L has the oaks in its catalog and it is known that they produced both. It is quite natural to find some in May 45 (or later and later ...) in that town." IS SOLID. They used what was found. This explains things that up till now by some have been thought to be fakes. Grades not issuded. They were in store because they were not called for.

So we now have Retired pilots badge a form I was personally only happy with. These are extreemly rare. Confirmed on the board. We could go on.

The big thing would be to try and collate what was on the boards so we have the firm evidence preserved.

This might all be true IF it is proven that the board was made in Lüdenscheid in 1945/46. Which it is clearly not. However, it is also not proven that is was not made during that tiem.

To base absolutes ("This badge is now real") on what is known about that board is very shaky. A possible fake does not become real when it is found together with a good one - no matter at what point in time.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The whole point of this "exercise" is that we don't know everything and, in fact, are now confronted with pretty good evidence that many things we believed about certain awards, and about the system in general, need to be re-evaluated. The routine condemnation of certain pieces should be questioned more intently. I know, personally, that you are open to this and welcome new information.

Absolutely! But this board (or maybe tow or three more) does not convince me as solid evidence to conclude "good" or "bad" from a previously 'shaky' badge. Not again!

[Leroy]

Dietrich,
What, really, is the "standard of proof"? I submit to you that based upon the standards applied to other badges, these boards would be accepted as sufficient. Of course, there COULD POSSIBLY be a fake among all the "real" ones, but where now is the "BURDEN" of proof? In the civil legal field which I am used to, the INITIAL burden is on the party proposing that something is so. That burden is "by a preponderence of the evidence", NOT "beyond a reasonable doubt" (which is the standard used to convict of a crime). In our hobby, there seems to be a reversal of standards. It is my personal belief* that once the "initial burden" is carried (which I think HAS been here), the burden "shifts". In other words, it is now incumbent on those who say something is fake (in the case of what we see HERE, not in unrelated matters) to prove it is fake.
Regards,
Leroy

* and, by the way, the law in America (at least)

[juoneen]

If speckling is a natural process not indicitive of a fake, then some fakes must have the right finishes put on them to look like the speckling in the 2 photos i showed, as these O&S's are marked 900 on the left, and just 21 on the right, and it is said they never marked them that way, and are not originals. At least godet didnt is the word anyway. I have looked at the knights of the iron cross you tube segments, and have seen all kinds of types of oakleaves, swords, oakleaves, and even cross types.This thread has blown the walls out of the rule books, and may rewrite some of the present opinions over time. I agree measurements must be taken.(every time another board surfaces) Also good photos for future reference.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Well, I guess I should address my comments on the "speckled finish" of the oaks. My comment stems from my experiences with CCCs and I have NEVER seen a speckled type of finish used on original wartime silver CCCs. However, this type of finish is common to silver 1957 CCCs and I have one in hand to study. Rather than it being a solo finish, it appears to be a two-layered finish. The first layer is almost completely black, over which was applied a pure silver-colored finish. As the silver finish breaks down or comes off, you get a speckled appearance.

Now, whether that is the same exact effect we see on some of these oaks, I really don't know. I see the example in Deitrich's book (page 284), and admit that it does look similar. If Dietrich says that type of finish is good and original, well that is certainly good enough for me. I just know that this type of silver finish WAS NOT used on original wartime CCCs, but was however used on 1957 CCCs.

Tom

[Leroy]

Interesting comments, Tom.

Do you know what the composition is of the 57 silver finish or the black undercoat? Did wartime pieces, in your observation, have the black undercoat?

Most Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords are either real silver with chemical frosting (which is really just an intentional chemical treatment of the underlying silver) or some other base metal which has been plated with real silver. The speckling is a natural atmospheric effect on the silver.

My feeling is that it is a coincidence that the "speckling" looks pretty much the same, one effect caused by atmospherics, the other caused by wear or breakdown of the upper coating.

JUONEEN -MANY copies are made from silver, and my comments would apply to them, too.

[Jos L C]

There's some rather confusing stuff on those boards though..

The luft Erdkampf looks like the GWL eagle, the observer like P.M., then the pilotbadges of which we thought were FLL are now S&L...
About the German crosses, I thought these were very controversial with pins and catch like that, few years ago they came in cellophane wrappers with damaged swas' etc..
Then there's the drooptail Spanish cross... and why do all fighter clasps have bronze arrows ?
Why are the boards bleached and the ribbons like new ?

Just some questions ..

Jos.