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    #46
    Thank you, gentlemen, for your replies.

    Having read the previous thread mentioned by Dietrich (and posting the link to that thread myself in one of my posts here), I also believe now that these boards were put together postwar for sale, so let me be clear on that point.

    Sal, you are right to be a "doubting Thomas". Close-ups of this badge, front and back, would tell us a lot more. While there ARE photographs which APPEAR to show this type cross in wear, they are simply not good enough in quality to be 100% sure. I'm posting one of those here (the property of member Jacques, previously posted, from his fine collection). Quite frankly, I would not expect many such photographs to exist if, in fact, the badge used a wrong eagle and was not put into mass circulation.

    I also find it interesting that, according to the "emedals" site, all of the SK's shown are marked "4", S&L's PKZ number. Dietrich has indicated that his research leads him to believe that the PKZ number should NOT be found on early badges. Others believe that the PKZ numbers actually preceded the LDO numbers and that debate still continues today on WAF. In any case, S&L (IF it made this badge wartime) could have "put it into the stream of commerce" at almost any time.

    What sways me a great deal in all this is the presence of the unflawed "A" type RK's shown (and also reported by DaveB to be in the sets he acquired) and the multiple reports (from people like Bob Hritz) that "boards"of this type have been found repeatedly as vet souvenirs, supposedly assembled in the immediate postwar period by residents of Ludenschied to raise money (or trade for food). To me, it stretches credibility to believe anything other than that these boards were assembled using leftover wartime stock (some, according to Bob Hritz, even sold like this without pins). Isn't it much more likely that these people were selling what was already in existence?

    Perhaps we will be fortunate and get to see the details of the SK (and some of the other badges from this lot) being sold on the "emedals" site.
    Attached Files

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by Dave-B View Post
      .......a set of S&L 57 Swords......
      Were these ones attached to a board, Dave?

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by Dave-B View Post
        I
        Sorry to hijack your thread. Robin.
        I'm glad you did, Dave.

        This has turned into a very interesting thread.

        So many anomalies and unanswered questions at the same time!

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by Harry View Post
          ....also interesting to note that Weidinger was awarded the Oakleaves and Swords on 6th May 1945, the last day of the war in the west, yet he has photos of himeself taken wearing the O&S, so technically he wore them early post-war...but were they made pre 6th May??
          Harry,

          you might remember that the PKZ was closed down at that time already and did not send out any medals - they were near Klessheim. Furthermore, Weidinger "got" his swords from Sepp Dietrich who had no authority whatsoever to award this level of the Iron Cross - Weidinger is NO sword winner.
          He stuck to his cross whatever he might have found postwar but surely not a set from the PKZ.

          Dietrich
          B&D PUBLISHING
          Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

          Comment


            #50
            Dave-B,
            Does the set shown on the right in Post #44 have the small "O" typically found on early '57 sets?
            Regards,
            Leroy

            Comment


              #51
              Here's von Manteuffel wearing the long swords....................
              Attached Files

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by Robin Lumsden View Post
                Were these ones attached to a board, Dave?
                No they were in with the RK lot as shown I'm afraid, how they ended up there I have no idea.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Naval Board

                  Guys,

                  Too bad there are no closeups of the badges (with reverse). Here is a front and back shot of the NAVY board with the SK and Naval Badges. Remember to "reverse" the matching reverse hardware with the obverse shot.

                  For the Naval Badges, there are appear to be a couple that are recognizable ... but there seems to be quite a few thin wire and catch examples pinned to the board as well. Anyone make them out from this pic?

                  SALES QUOTE*
                  Complete board with 13 awards: Spanish cross with swords in “Bronze”, marked “4”; Spanish cross with swords in “Gold”, marked “4”; Spanish cross in “Bronze”, maker “4”; Spanish cross in “Silver”, marked “4”; Spanish cross in “Gold” (without swords), maker “4”; these all in bronze, gilding and silvering faded, more gilding remains on reverse; E-Boat Badge, first pattern, in zinc alloy; U-Boat badge, in zinc alloy; Destroyer War Badge, in zinc alloy; High Seas Fleet Badge, in zinc alloy; Auxiliary Cruiser Badge, riveted globe, in zinc alloy; Coastal Artillery War Badge, in zinc alloy; Blockade Runners Badge, in zinc alloy; Minesweeper Badge, in zinc alloy. Finish mostly faded on all badges, all unworn, extremely fine condition. (Sold with expert evaluation/guarantee, by D. Niemann).
                  UNQUOTE*
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Leroy View Post
                    Dave-B,
                    Does the set shown on the right in Post #44 have the small "O" typically found on early '57 sets?
                    Regards,
                    Leroy
                    No Leroy, they are completely devoid of marks.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by Robin Lumsden View Post
                      Here's von Manteuffel wearing the long swords....................
                      One more, a bit clearer this time.................
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by Dave-B View Post
                        No they were in with the RK lot as shown I'm afraid, how they ended up there I have no idea.
                        Danke!

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Leroy View Post
                          Thank you, gentlemen, for your replies.

                          Having read the previous thread mentioned by Dietrich (and posting the link to that thread myself in one of my posts here), I also believe now that these boards were put together postwar for sale, so let me be clear on that point.

                          Sal, you are right to be a "doubting Thomas". Close-ups of this badge, front and back, would tell us a lot more. While there ARE photographs which APPEAR to show this type cross in wear, they are simply not good enough in quality to be 100% sure. I'm posting one of those here (the property of member Jacques, previously posted, from his fine collection). Quite frankly, I would not expect many such photographs to exist if, in fact, the badge used a wrong eagle and was not put into mass circulation.

                          I also find it interesting that, according to the "emedals" site, all of the SK's shown are marked "4", S&L's PKZ number. Dietrich has indicated that his research leads him to believe that the PKZ number should NOT be found on early badges. Others believe that the PKZ numbers actually preceded the LDO numbers and that debate still continues today on WAF. In any case, S&L (IF it made this badge wartime) could have "put it into the stream of commerce" at almost any time.

                          What sways me a great deal in all this is the presence of the unflawed "A" type RK's shown (and also reported by DaveB to be in the sets he acquired) and the multiple reports (from people like Bob Hritz) that "boards"of this type have been found repeatedly as vet souvenirs, supposedly assembled in the immediate postwar period by residents of Ludenschied to raise money (or trade for food). To me, it stretches credibility to believe anything other than that these boards were assembled using leftover wartime stock (some, according to Bob Hritz, even sold like this without pins). Isn't it much more likely that these people were selling what was already in existence?

                          Perhaps we will be fortunate and get to see the details of the SK (and some of the other badges from this lot) being sold on the "emedals" site.

                          Leroy, this doesn't fit in with the next of kin box. Why would S&L change dies late to a droop tail pattern if they had a proper die already? The argument has always been that these were early.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            also what is to have stopped anyone from selling something off the board and someone from replacing it with a fake in the last 60 odd years?

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by Sal Williams View Post
                              Leroy, this doesn't fit in with the next of kin box. Why would S&L change dies late to a droop tail pattern if they had a proper die already? The argument has always been that these were early.
                              Sal,
                              Perhaps I was unclear. I do not believe at all that S&L switched dies late to a down-tailed eagle. Instead, I believe the down-tail was the FIRST die, corrected after a short period to reflect the revised Luftwaffe eagle pattern.
                              Regards,
                              Leroy

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by Sal Williams View Post
                                also what is to have stopped anyone from selling something off the board and someone from replacing it with a fake in the last 60 odd years?
                                For $17k, maybe someone in "tight" with Barry can get him to make some good Obv and Rev pics of the badges. Geez ... for that much dough I would think the 20 minutes it would take should be well worth the time? I'd die to have a peek (at all the badges).

                                Comment

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