S&l ??

[DavidM]

Hello

Just for further comparison, since the CCC's are generating some interest, here are the reverses of two 57 CCC's showing some pin, hinge and catch set ups. The bronze one is allegedly made by Deumer, and the silver is by S&L.

Regards
David

[DavidM]

Silver CCC

[Robin Lumsden]

Chris.

You have a lot of experience of awards..................do you have any comments on all of this?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Since the majority of the medals are from S&L (right?) are there any from other manufacturers on the board which S&L also had in it's program?

[Bob Hritz]

I have purchased several dozen of these medal and badge boards directly from the veterans who brought them back from the war. Those who had good memories told me they were sold or traded to occupation forces by employees of the manufacturing firms. They were assembled after the war and the boards used would often have the company logo, especially Deumer. These boards were actually company cafeteria boards (what we call placemats) for those workers whho ate in the company cafeteria. Former employees scrounged for left over awards and sewed or pinned them to the boards. It was not uncommon to find incorrect ribbons on medals. Several of the Deumer boards I acquired had the awards numbered, underneath or next to each award, and the name of the award (often incorrect) written after corresponding numbers, on the reverse of the board. I have seen badges sewn down that never had the reverse hardware, or incomplete hardware.

Every actual award display I have seen was in a high quality case fitted for each award.

I must add that I have never seen a post-war award on these cafeteria boards. I cannot say if they were of original wartime finish or if work had been done post-war. However, the actual award planchets were all wartime produced.

Now, for the enlarged swords Oak leaves and swords: I had gotten one from a veteran, in the 1970s, on a Steinhauer Knight's Cross. Of course, no one would believe it and I foolishly traded it for the proverbial handfull of magic beans (nothing of importance). I would dearly love to have a set today, but with the paranoia and need for the blessing of the latest guru, they are basically worthless, even if produced pre May 8. 1945. If anyone wants to sell me a set for $1000, please send a PM.

The Anti Partisan badge is interesting and one I have not seen before. I would gladly have it in my collection, with the same caveat as the above Oak leaves and Swords. No one wants to believe it, but please show me the rest of this production, if post war. if someone wants to sell one at a substancial discount, please also PM me.

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

Bob,
Thanks very much for sharing your experience, insight and expertise. Of all those who post here, I know of no one who commands greater respect than you.
Regards,
Leroy

[Sal Williams]

Any thoughts on the Spanish cross Bob?

Best, Sal

[Leroy]

Although a definite "sidelight" to our discussions here, there is a very interesting discussion just now going on about marks, pin structures, sharing of material between makers, etc. under the title: "A question about St.&L."

[Allan P.]

As regards the APB does anyone have the book on the APB to check if the S&L type is in there?

Allan

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

A very good discussion IMO!

Tom

[Robin Lumsden]

.......but with the paranoia and need for the blessing of the latest guru, they are basically worthless............

So true of a lot of things in the hobby, these days.

[WARLORD]

Just a few observations. First if the boards were produced in the War or just after, the question is begged we have a number of anomalies. Or do we? The badges shown are in the form that has been observed from other early collections. David Littlejohns is a classic. Thus why were the boards produced. I think Bob is right that a number were produced for soveniers. BUT and this is a BIG BUT, the quantity and varriety of awards would not lead one to this conclusion. Also there is a very important thing that seems to be overlooked. 1945 Germany was divided into four sections. Soviet, British, American and French. These were individual and automatis. Military rule was exersised in each sector as that of the occupying power. The thought of Americans going into the British sector without proper paper work is unbaliveable. To obtain the simple thing like fuel required the right coupon. As late as 1966 I was issuded with petrol coupons, but these could only be used at APPROVED PETROL STATIONS AND IN THE BRITISH ZONE.

Ludenshied was well inside the British Zone.

British personel due to rationing in the War period, this lasted to 1953. Some items being free for the Coronation, were not to interested in sovenier badges. Type writters, large red swastika flags cameras, had a greater appeal. The flag could be converted to, a pair of curtains or a trendy dress. The little red dress could work well with our American cousins in Britain. Girl and GI = stockings and chocolate.

The British inteligence officers collected badges and awards and placed them on boards for recognition. I bought such a board from an officer, Mr Chesseman. He informed me his job was to interigate and remove awards, place the on a board. It seemed nothing was done with them. He brought his home.

My sugestion is that this represents a recognition board. Compiled for what ever reason. This gives rise to the varriety of awards in turms of manufacture. Factory requested to sort a badge of each type. These would encompase what was in the general store. These would cover a period from 1938 to the end. If there were strikings not used, eg Spanish cross with down swept eagle and gold without swords, no matter. If they were short then get an example from another factory.

But trying to make up pieces or produce new dies is not on the agenda.

My uncle was in an organisation that was investigating varrious things, he tells the story of being taken by a Town offical into the cellar room of a state building, here he was offered evey concievable medal and uniform to include a number of NSDAP STANDARDS. HIS RESPONCE WAS TO SAY THIS WAS OF NO INTEREST, THE BMW CARS IN THE GARRAGE WOULD BE MOST ACCEPTABLE.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The British inteligence officers collected badges and awards and placed them on boards for recognition. I bought such a board from an officer, Mr Chesseman. He informed me his job was to interigate and remove awards, place the on a board. It seemed nothing was done with them. He brought his home.

Wouldn't that require at least some kind of writing on it so the to be trained soldier could put a name to the badge?

Originally Posted by Bob Hritz
.......but with the paranoia and need for the blessing of the latest guru, they are basically worthless............

So true of a lot of things in the hobby, these days.

This is century old human behavior - not only these days. "Gurus" and "Experts" are named and characterized by the people who disagree with them or got pieces which are not 'blessed" by "the latest guru". "Good guys", 'knowledgable contributors" and experts (in the non-insulting way) are created by the ones who agree and have "sanctioned" pieces. It's not the fault of the "blessing" individual - it is the crazyness and laziness of the ones who want to be blessed ... they are the guru makers!! Just like in the Live of Brian!

[Bob Hritz]

This is century old human behavior - not only these days. "Gurus" and "Experts" are named and characterized by the people who disagree with them or got pieces which are not 'blessed" by "the latest guru". "Good guys", 'knowledgable contributors" and experts (in the non-insulting way) are created by the ones who agree and have "sanctioned" pieces. It's not the fault of the "blessing" individual - it is the crazyness and laziness of the ones who want to be blessed ... they are the guru makers!! Just like in the Live of Brian!

Dietrich,

I totally agree!

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

Well, very hard to transition from the last deep (but appreciated) comments back into this thread, but I'll try.

Boards made up for sale right after the war by factory workers using leftover stock.

Badges original to the period and apparently all from Ludenschied makers. Using hinges and pins and catches in differing combos. Some late war hardware similar to, but subtly different from, early '57's. A Glider badge and a Retired pilot (if anyone cared to look) which don't really match the ones designated as "real". Same for (at least) an APB. PKZ numbers where they shouldn't be. No LDO number where it should be (although we've seen this before, many times).

One badge (the SK) a double whammy, never believed (by very many) to truly exist before, but hard to deny now, and in a grade never authorized.

High grades apparently available for commercial purchase, against the "rules".

And the RK's, the RK's..........what on earth to say?

Utter and deafening silence from so many.

And, as at Yorktown in 1781 (maybe) the band played "The World Turned Upside Down".

Disagree with the above? That's OK, too.

Collecting may be a lot more fun now.