Grand Cross of the Knight's Cross

[Dave Kane]

Right on point! Please, Bill provide the story and all the 'drama' that was set up to sell the item(s)!

These are the kind of facts that need to be brought forth...recorded....and the new collectors be made aware of!

This isn't anything new...these instances are merely swept under the rug and in the end it just boils down to a "confidence game"!

Dave

[Brian S]

The best of documentation can sometimes deceive the buyer. I personally know of two instances where a high end item came with the best documentation from the family, but the items being sold was a post war replacement.

I'm not looking to fight with you Bill, but why now do you say this and get so defensive when I question that a badge does not match a photo that you received from the family? Perhaps the badge replaced by the vet, but, perhaps not?

[Mike Downey]

For disection only!
The pictures that I have seen of "The Fat Man" wearing his GC seem to indicate that the one he wore had a 'special' and much wider suspension loop than we see comming from dealers and the "castle" and various alleged museum examples; and on a regular basis, proclaimed and accepted as period crosses....the 1.5mm silver hanger utilized with Knight's Crosses appears to be the hanger used commonly with these crosses AND that which appears in the depictions of the day...Signal etc.!
I wonder why the producers of the GC wouldn't want to emulate what 'G' was wearing rather than show the kind of 'flimsy' looking wire hanger so often seen?
Was he wearing the heavy hanger at capture?

Gentlemen.I have a question regarding the Grand Cross...let's say the divorce has just gone through.She got the house and the dog,you got the money and the 1958 Manx Norton (only Prosper will appreciate the latter).From my reading,the two versions, and I'm talking real WW2 manufacture,are the early ones with just the 800 mark and the later ones with 800 and L 12.Gordon Williamson states in "The Iron Cross of 1939" page 442 ...authentic award pieces have the 800 mark...other pieces for shop window or museum displays also carry the LDO code L 12.Previtera "The Iron Time" page 381 is not as specific on this matter and I have an old Foreman catalogue circa 1982 which featured a cased 800 L12 example removed from Goering's hunting lodge which was obviously very expensive as the price was POA.You reach for the money...which one do you buy? I must admit to having problems paying around US$20000 plus for something described as a museum piece.
As none of the known awards have been proved to be worn by the Reichsmarschall we can pretty well discount "provenance"...and I reckon the award he was wearing when captured was probably liberated by the erstwhile Sgt Gottfried K Guennel of the US Special Interrogation Unit who just happened to also have the Knights Crosses of Skorzeny and Guderian (God bless him... obviously an early medal collector!).So quickly know before the ex-wife returns for the money.....
Mike Downey

[translator]

onyx/Platinum GCs Attributed to H. Goering

Gentlemen.I have a question regarding the Grand Cross...let's say the divorce has just gone through.She got the house and the dog,you got the money and the 1958 Manx Norton (only Prosper will appreciate the latter).From my reading,the two versions, and I'm talking real WW2 manufacture,are the early ones with just the 800 mark and the later ones with 800 and L 12.Gordon Williamson states in "The Iron Cross of 1939" page 442 ...authentic award pieces have the 800 mark...other pieces for shop window or museum displays also carry the LDO code L 12.Previtera "The Iron Time" page 381 is not as specific on this matter and I have an old Foreman catalogue circa 1982 which featured a cased 800 L12 example removed from Goering's hunting lodge which was obviously very expensive as the price was POA.You reach for the money...which one do you buy? I must admit to having problems paying around US$20000 plus for something described as a museum piece.
As none of the known awards have been proved to be worn by the Reichsmarschall we can pretty well discount "provenance"...and I reckon the award he was wearing when captured was probably liberated by the erstwhile Sgt Gottfried K Guennel of the US Special Interrogation Unit who just happened to also have the Knights Crosses of Skorzeny and Guderian (God bless him... obviously an early medal collector!).So quickly know before the ex-wife returns for the money.....
Mike Downey

Actually, the question that started this thread concerned the pair of 1939 Grand Crosses that were just sold at auction in Munich. These were onyx-centred and framed in platinum; they were purportedly given as a 50th birthday gift to Hermann Goering. As such, these crosses were neither 800-marked nor 800 L12-marked; they carried no markings whatsoever and realized some $53,000 (U.S.). Regarding attribution, here's a partial translation of the German lot description: ""included is a photocopy of a letter dated May 1969 from the former owner, Wolfgang Schulze von Mertchinsky, in which he states he obtained this "silver case with the two Grand Crosses of the Iron Cross of 1939 in onyx and platinum" in 1958 from Goering's widow Emmy through the mediation of the later general consul to the royal throne of Thailand, Herr Styler". The description further describes how a letter from the Berlin jeweler Prof. H. Zeitner stated that although he had been commissioned to produce this special issue in platinum and onyx, he did not stamp the pieces with his mark because they were produced as a pattern.""

Apparently, the above was enough of a statement of provenance for the eventual buyer of this lot.

T.

[Brian S]

Hard to reckon that everyone except some personalities on this forum are all deceits. Had I the pockets of some of the rich personalities with the 'change' to puchase these, I would have.

But I don't and unless Hugh Hefner owns up to being my daddy...

Let's be honest here, Clint E., Bill G., Sylvester S., don't get their or by vetting items here.

I tend to think most of us on the forum would rather purchase and tend to believe in items that tell their own story. At the extreme, are the medal bars that Rick L and Rick V and Claudio, et al, can establish as period perfect pieces belonging to specific individuals.

[Mike Downey]

T.[/QUOTE]



Translator.Thanks for the interesting info on the HH lot.I see these however as a different item to the award Grand Crosses.I believe that you would have to consider them as an integral part of the silver presentation case they were in ...I doubt they were ever designed to be worn but rather another example of the sort of thing G loved to be given...especially by Hitler.I think they would appeal to a collector of German presentation items rather that an award collector....and they obviously did!
Kind Regards
Mike Downey

[translator]

T.

Translator.Thanks for the interesting info on the HH lot.I see these however as a different item to the award Grand Crosses.I believe that you would have to consider them as an integral part of the silver presentation case they were in ...I doubt they were ever designed to be worn but rather another example of the sort of thing G loved to be given...especially by Hitler.I think they would appeal to a collector of German presentation items rather that an award collector....and they obviously did!
Kind Regards
Mike Downey[/QUOTE]

Mike,

Agreed....

T.

[W. C. Stump]

I'm not looking to fight with you Bill, but why now do you say this and get so defensive when I question that a badge does not match a photo that you received from the family? Perhaps the badge replaced by the vet, but, perhaps not?

You will get no fight out of this old man, but I am very defensive when I know something for a fact and have someone try to nit pick and twist those facts. As per key items in grouping being switched I said I knew two instances where this happened. I shall not go into details of each case for all it would do is put me in the middle of a legal controversy. This happens and we will never know for sure in most cases. One must have good information and keep your sources confidential for without a lot of proof a civil suit could cause more trouble than it is worth.

[Brian S]

You will get no fight out of this old man, but I am very defensive when I know something for a fact and have someone try to nit pick and twist those facts.

Yeah, them ain't fighting words