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    #1

    Is Schickle really L/15 ??

    Years ago Gordon posted a Schickle catalog with supplement pages and based on that the LCTB was identified as a Schickle. I am also of the opinion that the shown RK in the supplement pages shows a "Schickle", but ...

    there is a collector in a German forum who says or better opinions that the separate sheets which Gordon presented as part of the 1940 Schickle catalog are NOT from the Schickle catalog. The reason being that he found a 1940 Schickle catalog without those sheets but with some other inserts (regarding sales procedures). So, since his catalog doesn't have the inserts Gordon has in his one, he things that they don't belong to Schickle and he also opinions that Schickle did not have the number L/15 and did not make any RKs either. What is considered "Schickle" could very well be Lauer/Nuremberg. And that is based on an advertisement from Lauer mentioning the number L 15!

    He also makes a good point in that the supplement pages in Gordon's catalog (are they loose???) do show the LCTB again - it is already shown in the general catalog. And he is also saying that some of the badges shown in the supplement pages are of the B.H. Mayer design.

    He has some excellent points here! Does anybody have anything to further the issue?

    Dietrich


    PS: here is a link to the original thread:
    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...highlight=LCTB
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    #2
    Can these be identified?
    Attached Files
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      #3
      Hello Dietrich,

      thanks for bringing our interesting discussion to the WAF. I would like to add the following points to think about:

      1.
      Gordon shows 6 supplement pages. One 5 of them we have awards allready shown in the Schickle catalog. Why?

      2.
      Every single award in the Schickle catalog is numbered matching his price list. In the supplement pages nothing is numbered.

      3.
      Compare the design of certain badges in the supplement pages to the Schickle catalog. The wound badge and the U-boat war badge are clearly not the same design.

      and finally the Lauer ad:
      Attached Files
      Last edited by ak72; 08-14-2008, 11:41 AM.
      Best regards, Andreas

      ______
      The Wound Badge of 1939
      www.vwa1939.com
      The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
      www.ek1939.com

      Comment

        #4
        Can the combat badges be identified?
        Attached Files
        Best regards, Andreas

        ______
        The Wound Badge of 1939
        www.vwa1939.com
        The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
        www.ek1939.com

        Comment

          #5
          .
          Last edited by Darrell; 08-15-2008, 09:24 AM.

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post
            Can these be identified?
            IMO these are L/15, and can be found maker marked as such
            regards
            jon

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by tinmantis View Post
              IMO these are L/15, and can be found maker marked as such
              Jon,

              ther is some resemblance in details - especially the left claw (seen from the observer). And if that is so it still leaves two possibilities:

              - Schickle is L/15 (and the additional pages are from Schickle)
              - Lauer is L/15 and the additional pages found their way into Gordon's Schickle catalog (which would be very freakish)
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                #8
                I found this offer from Helmut Weitze. The picture was saved in July 2003 on my computer. This could very well be the same catalog Gordon later posted but it could be also another example. Only Gordon can answer that.

                The other very important question is this: Why was - up to several days ago - the whole collecting world thinking that L/15 is Schickle? I understand the argument that in the Internet everybody is copying from anybody and mistakes multiply (which they surely do!) BUT I have pre- Internet literature in which L/15 Schickle is mentioned.
                Attached Files
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                  #9
                  Can L/15 be "Schickle" for a period and "Lauer" for an other Period ?
                  We know "L/15" and "L15", could "L/15" identify a manufacturer and "L15" an other ????
                  As an example "L/15" and "L15" EK/KVK looks to have been made from different manufacturers !

                  a crazy suposition: On his ad, Lauer seems to use "L15" (w/o "/"). Maybe he use "L15" to differentiate his production to previous "Schickle - L/15" production ???

                  Michael

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Dietrich,
                    Is there not an "L" assignment "list" in the literature you reviewed for the RK book? I'm not at home right now, so can't look up anything.
                    Leroy

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Leroy View Post
                      Dietrich,
                      Is there not an "L" assignment "list" in the literature you reviewed for the RK book? I'm not at home right now, so can't look up anything. Leroy
                      No, unfortunately not. The lists from the PKZ and the Uniformen-Markt only list the companies but not the numbers! neither LDO not PKZ!


                      @ Michael

                      I doubt a double assignment. A typo, yes. But not a double assignment. Schickle was stripped of it's LDO number in Juli 1941 anyway since the company lost its supplier status and went out of business.
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post
                        I doubt a double assignment. A typo, yes. But not a double assignment. Schickle was stripped of it's LDO number in Juli 1941 anyway since the company lost its supplier status and went out of business.
                        It's not only a Typo difference, many (and I) are thinking the "L/15" and "L15" EK/KVK looks to have been made by 2 different Makers.
                        As told it's only a supposition, but if L/15 was reattributed to Lauer during the post 1941 years, it would explain much !!!! Is this a stupid supposition ???

                        Comment

                          #13
                          I meant the L 15 in the Lauer advertisement, not in general and I am very well aware of the different L 15 frames.

                          I also did not say that your "supposition is stupid !!!"
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                            #14
                            i think it is not logical to change the numbers from Schickle to Lauer. The only thing that can happen is that what we know have. Confusion. Confusion which marker use which code. That is in 2008 the same than in 1941.

                            When a supplier in our firm gets a supplier number, than he has this number for know and forever. It doesn't matter if he deliever our firm once or more. And why only one number to one firm? We will be saved that nobody is confused when two firms have the same number. If something happen to the supplier, we change the adresse, the name etc. but never the number. Also when the firm did not longer exist, the number will not be deleated. Because when i am searching in the system (an invoice or something else) i need the supplier number.

                            The LDO or the Präsidialkanzlei are not short of numbers. Why should they use a number they has given away to an other firm? They can use a lot of other numbers in following order. Remember the Germans will regulate everything. They institue the LDO to regulate the markt, to make clear guidelines, where you must markermark the badge etc. They do this to identify the firm who produce the badges. And than the LDO give the same number two firms???

                            And when somebody says that L/15 and L 15 are different firms? What is with the other firms which use sometime the "/" and sometimes not? That must be than also other firms or not? Or is L/15 and L 15 the only exception that proves the rule? I can not believe that

                            About the Schickle catalog. When you look the catalog from June 1940 you will see the there is a logical layout. One side with all badges related to the War in Spain, one side only all about Motercrosses etc and every item has a number. A number you will find on the end of the catalog with prices. And on the others sheets all disarrangement, no numbers, other design and badges that allways published in the catalag from June 1940. That all makes no sence to me. The sheets with the black background looks more like "Musterplatten" for a shop window that somebody has photographed and printed.

                            Not easy for me to write this all in english, hope eyerone can understand what i wrote.

                            Gruß

                            Basti

                            Comment

                              #15
                              BassD,
                              That was a very good post and your English is fine!
                              Perhaps the difference between an "L/15" and an "L15" (by example only) is something as simple as one firm making a piece for another, under contract, as a supplier. We will find out eventually!
                              Leroy

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