Latest EK2 - '16' Alois Rettenmaier.

[Adrian]

Thank you for the comments guys.
James, the die may well have been used alot but it seems like it was still in good condition when this cross was made. I think the wear or blurred beading is a result of the cross being in a pocket or bag for a period of time. The movement of the EK on the material would've caused this effect.
Robert, Steinar, Mark, regarding the beading - the area indicated below by the green arrow is excess material, like the beading has a step on the outside of the frame and on the inside. Where the red arrow is pointing, there is a sizeable gap between the core and beading. I will take some close up pics tomorrow to show what I mean.

[Steinar]

interesting cross, there seems to be something with the beading on the 6 o clock arm as well. very strange but really cool

[Robert P.]

I see what you mean. It looks like the beading was pried away from the core....?

Robert

[Adrian]

I see what you mean. It looks like the beading was pried away from the core....?

Robert

Sorry Robert, I wasn't clear in my explaination. The core is full size and reaches to the edge of the bottom of the 3 o'clock arm. The gap I mention is between the surface of the core and the beading usually you can just get a thin piece of paper into the gap, in this case there is a possible 2mm gap. I hope my pics tomorrow eve will explain it better.

[Douglas 5]

Nice and interesting cross Adrian:

A very rarely seen example of manufacturing error , that earlier in the war would not have gotten this far and quality control would have pulled out of assembly as a reject . As the demand in 42 for crosses was getting so high , this was a marginal piece they let through , personally very borderline .?

If one looks closely a very simple and disasterous thing started happening !!!
The frame trimming cutters have slipped off the horizontal axis , a slight dipping on the right side ... so the cutters are no longer inline with the cross . This leaving on the right inside too much excess metal - that was not trimmed and
thereby crunching part of the just made beading on the bottom right inside of the right arm . Not as severe the same goes for the lower arm .

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

Furthermore :
something that will be quite a shock to all here . I have studied the presented 16 marked crosses here very closely , before making this announcement !
Yes - Rettenmeyer EK2s are rare and there is a reason , as the shown crosses themselves give proof to this .
As these crosses show - Rettenmeyer bought complete crosses and or cross parts to assemble and mark with a 16 !! Is the 16 mark good - I cannot tell .
Anyway George and Robert both shown crosses-16 marked rings -that do have a clear S&L 2nd frame and 2nd core .
And to add to the mix Adrian's cross has a very worn 1st S&L frame and what looks like - a tilting last 9 type- Juncker core !
Something similar to this is the different obtained pin types Rettenmeyer used on their L/59 EK1s . They used what they could get ..........

Douglas

[Adrian]

Furthermore :
something that will be quite a shock to all here . I have studied the presented 16 marked crosses here very closely , before making this announcement !
Yes - Rettenmeyer EK2s are rare and there is a reason , as the shown crosses themselves give proof to this .
As these crosses show - Rettenmeyer bought complete crosses and or cross parts to assemble and mark with a 16 !! Is the 16 mark good - I cannot tell .
Anyway George and Robert both shown crosses-16 marked rings -that do have a clear S&L 2nd frame and 2nd core .
And to add to the mix Adrian's cross has a very worn 1st S&L frame and what looks like - a tilting last 9 type- Juncker core !
Something similar to this is the different obtained pin types Rettenmeyer used on their L/59 EK1s . They used what they could get ..........

Douglas

Hello Douglas,
This and your previous post is pretty darned impressive! I hadn't gotten around to comparing the frame or core with other makers. Great work and thank you.
I'm going to post up a few more pics of the defects, unfortunately I got in late from work and the light was going but I hope the pics will show the flaws a bit more clearly.....
First up is a shot of the 'inner step' on the top of the 3 o'clock arm....

[Adrian]

Another angle....

[Adrian]

This pic shows the gap between the core and the beading....

[Adrian]

A bit closer....

[Douglas 5]

Thanks Adrian : pictures show that trimming flaw quite well .
Very nice and important EK2 frame /core combination example I have been looking for a project I had been working on .
A few - 14 or so- a listed here in the stats , interesting to see what frames and cores they have . Unfortunately many fake stamped numbers are showing up on good crosses .
Cheers, Douglas

[Flemming]

What an interesting cross , nice addition.

/Flemming

[streptile]

Hi Douglas, Adrian, and everyone.

If one looks closely a very simple and disasterous thing started happening !!! The frame trimming cutters have slipped off the horizontal axis , a slight dipping on the right side ... so the cutters are no longer inline with the cross . This leaving on the right inside too much excess metal - that was not trimmed and thereby crunching part of the just made beading on the bottom right inside of the right arm . Not as severe the same goes for the lower arm .
Douglas

I had this same thought when I saw the photos. But if the frame trimming cutter was a stamping-machine that stamped out the inner cross-shaped piece of metal in a single downward-thrusting movement, and had rotated (or slipped) off its axis prior to cutting this example, wouldn't the same "excess material" and "half-bead" flaws be present on all four arms?

I think this kind of flaw could only be caused by damage to the frame-trimmer itself, in which only that portion of the machine that stamps out the 3 o'clock arm is bent, or twisted, in relation to the rest of the machine.

If this is unclear I could post a little diagram later, or...

perhaps I'm not understanding precisely how the frame-trimmer works?

Thanks.

Cool thread and cross.

~Trevor

[Douglas 5]

From the shape we have the trimmer did not rotate on a centre axis but piveted on one left side corner .

Douglas

[streptile]

Thanks Douglas. Do you have a photo? I'm still not entirely sure I get it, as even a frame-cutting tool that pivots on an off-center axis would make these flaws -- albeit in greater or lesser degrees -- on every arm. Am I missing something?

~TR


EDIT:

I do get it. You're right. It can be seen in this photo clearly.



Sorry for not looking closely enough before. I see exactly what you mean. The flaws are present -- in greater and lesser degrees -- on every arm. And the pivot seems to be, as you said, at the 10 o'clock position.

Well spotted!

Thanks,
Trevor