Story of Souval

[jani_tiainen]

I have came across very high quality items many many times... and almost every time answer for my inquiries is "post war Souval"...?

So what is the story behind Souval and it's creative manufacture after WW2?
Did they just kept going to manufacture everything they used to do?
Why?
To whom they sold?
Where I could get info which items they did?
What was the period they did these things after war?

Jani

[George Stimson]

To answer some of your questions:

"Did they just kept going to manufacture everything they used to do?"

I think they pretty much did. There were not the same post-war anti-Nazi-paraphernalia laws in effect in Austria as there were in Germany. Since Souval was located in Vienna, he could continue manufacturing his wares.

"Why?"

$$$$$

"To whom they sold?"

Probably to anybody who would buy.

"Where I could get info which items they did?"

I'm not aware of any Souval database, but by educating yourself on the characteristics of Souval war vs. post-war pieces you could find out enough to know which was which. (It sounds like a good topic for a thread!)

[Chris Taylor]

From what I've heard Souval continued to manufacture 3rd Reich medals almost immediatly after the war on the dies that weren't destroyed in allied bombing.

They sold these badges & medals to the occupation forces, thousands of souvenir hungry GI's & allied forces. Most of these immediate post war items are made of inferior metals, this due to the shortages of materials. But as time went on, the the quality improved, thus the detail & high quality of some of these post war pieces.

Also Souval marked many pieces the same way as during the war. Most of the time if you know how a specific badge was marked during the war & then how they marked it post war, you can tell the difference, but it's still kind of a pain in the a**.
Hence the reason so many people don't want to chance buying a Souval piece, because it might be post war.

As to how long they manufactured, I'm not really sure but I know it was for a long time.

Here's a post war (late 1940's) Souval GAB that I got from the family of a vet who had said he bought it for around $0.35 in 1947 or so.

[Chris Taylor]

Here's the back.

Note the round "R.S." mark.

From what I understand, on a GAB this means it's a post war Souval.

The pin on this is a replacement.
One thing that I've noticed on these post war Souvals is that the hinge is all one piece, instead of having a seperate pin in it.

[Chris Taylor]

Here is a very nice detailed Luft Flak badge attributed to Souval.

[Chris Taylor]

Notice the catch.

This type of one piece, round catch is attributed to post war Souvals.

[Chris Taylor]

Now here is a war time Souval IAB, next to the post war GAB above.

The metal used in the IAB is much heavier than the metal used in the post war GAB.

[Chris Taylor]

Here is a comparison on the "R.S." marks on the back.

Notice how the mark on the IAB is sharper, (less round), than the mark on the post war GAB.

Also notice the pin & catch on the good IAB.

Jani, I hope all this can be of some use to you.
It's taken me some time to try & figure out as much as I can on Souval pieces, but I still don't really know squat.

I'm sure there are some others out there who know more than me & hopefully we'll here from them on this.

[Brian S]

Good job Chris! Thanks for the input, I've wondered often about these Souval pieces for a long time.

[J Howland]

In the early nineteen seventies a company based in NYC ("Globe Militaria"? I can't recall) ran regular full page ads in The Shotgun News that listed dozens and dozens of medals and badges then being manufactured by the Souval firm.

I was involved in a stage production at the time and I bought a RK off of their list for twenty or twenty five bucks to use in the stage production. Other than the fact that it was stamped 800 or 900 under the ring on both the front and the back, it was pretty decent... well, let me hedge that somewhat: the HK wasn't all that high and the loop (which was stamped 800 or 900, too) was folded back strangely so that a double thickness ran through the ring.

I was teaching at a boarding school at the time. One of my students came in from vacation with a mint "gauranteed pre-'45" RK that he had just bought from a Western PA dealer who was - as I recall - also a policeman. Nice frosting, nice hallmarks - the only problem was that under magnification, the frame had the same stress marks and minute imperfections that were on the Souval $25 special that I had just bought for the play! The boy saw the same things once I brought them to his attention and he did get a refund (the fact that I think that his dad was the mayor may have helped him convince the policeman/dealer to do the right thing!).

What this all illustrated to me was that Souval made III Reich medals in the 1970's in at least two qualities, one of which was pretty damn good - especially for the time when all anybody had as English language reference was the little black and white "WE" reprint and maybe a color ribbon plate from an original WW II intelligence manual (if the page hadn't crumbled to dust).

A final word, I remember going through some of Dr. Kleitman's publications back then ('70's) and noticing that a lot of the medals and badges that Souval was making and selling were awards that they never had a patent to make pre-'45 and had never manufactured before the end of the war!!

[Erich B.]

Souval

I remember small catalogues from Ken Lane in Austria in the late 60's, from which you could purchase virtually any medal or badge. I don't believe that they were ever represented to be originals vs. reproductions, although it was pretty obvious because of the number of pieces available and the very low prices, that they were restrikes. I believe most of them were Souval produced pieces. The quality was very high--I never had the money to spend but had friends who ordered items from him that were very nicely done.
Erich

[Dietrich Maerz]

Question

If a company - like Souval - continues to manufacture the same items with the same material and quality after 8th of May 1945, is that product a repro, a fake or an original? And what makes it a fake, a repro or an original?

[Sonderkommando]

Souval Marks

One thing I noticed mentioned is that Souval had all his original wartime tooling and continued to manufacture badges etc. post war on this tooling. If that is the case, why are the "R.S." marks more rounded on postwar pieces? They should be exactly the same as original '39-'45 pieces as the marks on his badges are raised and part of the die, and not applied separately at a later date?
Either the rounded "R.S." is correct wartime marks or he DIDN'T use his original wartime tooling, which may be a clue in determining what is wartime versus postwar. (i.e. different tooling equals different die characteristics to the obverse as well)

Dietrich, your question is tricky but lets say that they would not be "Period Pieces" which I guess is what we are all trying to collect.

Cheers,
Brett

[Erich B.]

terminology

To me, restrike is the most appropriate term.
Erich

[Chris Taylor]

Good point Brett,

I haven't encountered a wartime Souval GAB to compare this post war one to. But from what I understand the rounded "R.S." is correct on some Kreigsmarine badges, (U-Boat Badge I beleive) & on Closed Combat Clasps.

I beleive that right after the war Souval used the wartime dies, & then later on when they wore out, replaced them with new ones. This may have something to do with the differences in marks & detail. If you compare the originals with later post war pieces there are differences.

In the case of the Luft badge I posted above, the detail is exceptional, but not correct. If that makes any sense.

Also something that I've heard before is that some styles of letter are correct for some badges but wrong for others, but that there is no universal correct letter style for Souval wartime made pieces.
Some high volume badges have both types.

I think one of the tells of a post war piece is the hinge, pin & catch assembly. The single piece, "punch out" clasp on the Luft badge is not found on any wartime Souval pieces, only post war.

Also the "L/58" mark can be the tell of a post war Souval. I believe that while this was his wartime mark, along with 98, most of the pieces out there with this mark are post war.

It's such a minefield with this maker, it's no wonder prices of Souval items are usually so much lower than that of other makers.