Is the Iron Cross still given to German Soldiers Today?

[Kai-Steffen M.]

what i can tell about this:

if germany was ever to declare war on another country again, i am pretty sure that there would be an iron cross again

yes, military tradition conscience is alive and well (i am the best example id say )- but is not connected with the 3rd reich era in a political sense- only individuals (rommel, guderian etc.) are seen as examples.

there are currently no combat awards in the bundeswehr- but since the BW is conducting more and more operations abroad (also combat ops like in afghanistan) there is discussion about such an award.(this is only a development of the last 10 years)

the Bundesverdienstkreuz (frederal merit cross) is a totally civilian award (of course it can be awarded to military personnel- but has nothing to do with their job but is awarded for civilian archievements)- so the comparisons darry made are not appropriate - also the correct levels are:
-Verdienstmedaille(merit medal)
-Verdienstkreuz am Bande(merit cross on a band)
-Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse (merit cross 1st class)
-Großes Verdienstkreuz (great merit cross)
-Großes Verdienstkreuz mit Stern (great merit cross with star)
-Großes Verdienstkreuz mit Stern und Schulterband (great merit
cross with star and shoulder band)
-Großkreuz (grand cross)
-Sonderstufe des Großkreuzes (special grade of the grand cross)

yes- the BW still has a lot of symbols which were taken over from it predeccessor german armys - also the wehrmacht- the Iron Cross is its official symbol (mentioned before) and used to mark all its vehicles etc. the para badge is the same (except the swas of course) just as the panzer badge- the schützenschnur is still present etc.....

Gruß,
KSM

[Mark S.]

if germany was ever to declare war on another country again, i am pretty sure that there would be an iron cross again

what about if they just "annexed" traditional lands..would that count?

[DarryTeo]

If nobody make noise, consider legal and no chance of re-instituting new iron cross.

Anyway, I can visualise how the new iron cross is going to be look like...

[Kube]

EK

Estonia currently awards EKs with a totenkopf in the center.
very nice. Everyone bow your heads and pray for war.

[deejay]

Iron cross

Hi all,

very interesting thread. I happen to have a dutch newspaper article stating that German General and NATO top man (Kosovo war period) Klaus Naumann was pleeding on a new Iron cross medal for bravery. His argument being that he missed a special award for bravery and found it appropriate to keep the tradition of the 1813 iron crosses.

I do not know if he ever succeeded.

As the Iron crosses were allowed to be worn without the swastika from 1958 on, the last versions had the date 1939. You should not say "re-institution" but a "new issue" would sound better.
Approval has to come to make a new Iron cross version with for example the year 2003 on it.
Like the aircraft and vehicle markings of the present day, the iron cross is still very much in use.

[Daniel Krause]

There is no official talk about a bravery decoration in Germany.
Until now there is "only" the Ehrenzeichen der Bundeswehr, which comes in 3 classes and a medal. It is given for acts of bravery like lifesaving, for merits in ops abroad and same like for normal merits sitting on a desk at home (like my one ) Otherwise we have the Einsatzmedaille just for participating in service abroad (which is now new in 3 classes) and nothing else.

Best regards

Daniel

[Kai-Steffen M.]

Klaus Naumann is now retired and the discussion about a new EK has ceased (everyone ahs agreed that it is only re-instituted when the country is in war and danger)- but there are thoughts about a bravery/marit/combat award of some kind (heard that from the son of a Oberst i.G. in the Defense ministry- friend of mine)...

Gruß,
KSM

[J4463]

I think maybe it is hard for some of us in the US to understand why the EK is not around all the time in Germany. Follow me for a second here.

The roots of the military/honor/tradition in Germany runs far deeper than that here in the United States. Perhaps the Germans feel that the EK is so prestigious a tradition/honor that it only be reserved for "major" conflicts.

As far as the United States goes, any combat makes soldiers eligible for medals like the MOH or Distinguished Service Cross, etc. I'm sure men in Haiti, Grenada, and Panama received decortaions like the Silver Star, etc. That is not trivializing these campaigns or awards in any way shape or form.

My point is first, Germany does not normally engage in such missions around the world and second, their attitudes about medals and awards could be different given past history/tradition.

That being said, I still think that the EK should be instituted as decoration for bravery for those soldiers who place their lives on the line for their country. No matter how small the fight, someone is just as brave (and just as dead) in a small campaign as they are in a big one.

Does this make any sense or am I nuts?

[Rolf D.]

Iron Cross

I hope that the German Government does not do away with the EK if they do engage in further military actions. My only fear is that it would be so closely related to WWII and what it stood for in that era, but it is truly a Prussian award that is very attractive and eye catching!

[Steve in Florida]

Our last two MOH's went to

two Delta soldiers who died in combat helping to save the lives of their comrades. This was in Somalia. I don't think the size or significance of the "war" or conflict takes away from their actions or makes them any less eligible for the MOH. I'd think the same would apply to the Germans.

[J4463]

Re: Our last two MOH's went to

Originally posted by Steve in Florida
Two Delta soldiers who died in combat helping to save the lives of their comrades. This was in Somalia. I don't think the size or significance of the "war" or conflict takes away from their actions or makes them any less eligible for the MOH. I'd think the same would apply to the Germans.

I agree wholeheartedly Steve. My point is, given the answers up above along the lines of "actual war" or "declared war" leads me to believe that perhaps the size and significance of the war or conflict is responsible for the lack of the EK today.

The United States Armed Forces does not distinguish between a huge war and a small one in terms of awards, but given the reasons for the lack of the EK in Germany today, leads me to believe that maybe the German military/government does.

Please do not infer my comments as judgement or criticism, I am just trying to initiate discussion. Thank you all for the responses, this is turning into a great thread!

[Kai-Steffen M.]

The United States Armed Forces does not distinguish between a huge war and a small one in terms of awards, but given the reasons for the lack of the EK in Germany today, leads me to believe that maybe the German military/government does

Well, at least i do- so much i can tell. and as someone said- we here in europe- and maybe especially in germany have a lot of military history and traditions- and traditionally the EK has only been instituted when the country was in danger- it has not been reinstituted in 1866- or in one of the countless conflicts in the colonies between 1870 and 1914- and thats good i think- this is what makes it special and what people fascinates about this award... personally i wouldnt like to see someone who was in afghanistan (yes, it was dangerous i know...) getting an iron cross for whatever reason- why? because all the rest of germany sat at home in front of their tv- had enough food, lead there normal lives and were happy- thats no real danger (and some over here wouldnt even call these conflicts "war"- ask my granddad)..
maybe its difficult to understand for you americans because you never had a war on your own soil (well- in the last 150 years when the real bad ones happened that is)-

dont get me wrong- i really think there should be a bravery medal or something like that for people who distinguished themselves somewhere over the world- but this shouldnt be the EK

Gruß,
KSM

[Dave Danner]

1813, 1870, 1914, 1939... The EK is only given when Germany is at war with France

Seriously, the impetus for creation of a new award or reinstitution of the EK would come if (a) Germany were involved more directly in a major conflict or (b) the US or another country awarded valor awards to Germans (as opposed to Legions of Merit, Army Commendation Medals or the like), and there was significant press attention to the fact that another country would and could recognize German soldiers for something their own country couldn't.

The Honor Cross of the Armed Forces (Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr) cannot be a reasonable basis for an awards system. Besides its chintzy appearance, although it can be awarded for merit, is primarily a long-service award (and in the case of the Ehrenmedaille, not even very long at that).

Here are the four classes:


If the EK were to be reinstituted, and I think in the current political climate that is unlikely, the most logical date to choose would seem to be 1989 or 1990, to commemorate reunification (depending on whether you date from the Wall falling or actual reunification).

Dave

[Luftm40]

I think you could at least argue the case that Germany and most other industrialized Western nations ARE directly threatened ...by terrorism. This is the premise for the U.S. led Global War on Terrorism. German troops fought as part of this in Afghanistan.

[Kai-Steffen M.]

the german government and the majority of the german population does not share the way to see and treat this terrorist problem as the US does at the moment- this is all i can and will say concerning this...
the actions in afghanistan and elsewhere are justified in a completely different way in germany although they may be the same or have the same effect as the US actions-
anyway- i wouldnt call any of these conflicts "major" conflicts that would justify a reinstitution of the EK and obviously the officials share this opinion of mine...

the most logical date to choose would seem to be 1989 or 1990,

i do not see any logic in that- the EK had always had the date on it in which the conflict started for which it was instituted (Liberation War 1813- Franco-Prussian War 1870- WW1 1914- WW2 1939)... so the date on a still to come EK would be the one in which a future conflict starts "2xxx"

Gruß,
KSM