Is the Iron Cross still given to German Soldiers Today?

[J4463]

If the German Army were ever to engage in combat again would the Iron Cross 1957 issue be given as an award? If it were, are there still the same levels that existed in 1939? Thanks in advance....

[Ruki vyerkh]

I'd like to know the answer to that myself.
It has official status as a symbol; it's on all their tanks and planes.
Further, any hope for a future military Pour Le Merite, which is still given in civilian/humanitarian accomplishments version?
Also, does the Bundeswehr have any other combat-specific awards in place?
Haven't its soldiers been under fire on peacekeeping missions?
- Paul in Ohio

[Vadim K]

hi Jason,

1957 pieces were created with a sole purpose of replacing 1939 awards as a part of "de-nazification" process (not a single new Iron Cross has been awarded post-1945). As such, they can not be awarded in a modern day conflict any more than 1870 Iron Cross could be awarded to WW1 soldiers. If there ever was a need for another Iron Cross (quite unlikely), they would have to come up with a new version.

[George Stimson]

EKs awarded today?

No.

[Gordon Williamson]

The Iron Cross is what is known as a "temporary" award, which only exists when the nation is in a state of war, hence it had to be re-instituted with a new order each time.
Technically, for the Iron Cross to be official awarded, Germany would have to be in a state of war with another nation. I think the chances of Germany declaring war on anyone is pretty remote, so we have probably seen the last of the Iron Cross.

U.N. peacekeeping actions wouldn't count.

[Volkbert]

Maybe Germany can create a middle east campaign medal for a peace keeping mission.

[meriksson]

For now i dont think they will ever get close to form a medal close to EK´s in shape. Maybe in 100 years from now!.
Mikael

[J4463]

I wonder if the new government would ever re-institute the award. My guess is that since the Third Reich the award has been associated with Nazism. Then again, I think it is all a dead issue anyway since Germany will probably never be involved in anything major ever again (at least lets hope so). Thanks for the info!

[Eric Gaumann]

No, Jason, it's not. More's the pity.
I've posed this question before and have gotten the same answers (No, Not Bloody Likely, Time-of-War Only).

*But*, there are some indicators that show that, perhaps, someday, the EK may be reinstituted.
First is that this world's history shows that war will be inevitable. So it's just a matter of time before Germany declares war on somebody. It's sad and a terrible waste but it seems that human nature just cannot pass up massacring their fellow man for silly reasons.
Secondly there is *still* a matter of "tradition" in the German armed forces of the present: there are ships named after WW2 heros, and flying squadrons named after those heros, too. And I've found that there is a great deal of pride in today's German Army for their real military elite. Guys Like Rommel, Guderian, Mackensen, Rudel, Ludendorff, Friedrich der Grosse, Marsaille, Hartmann, Blucher, Wittmann, Immelmann etc.... They, the German military of today and their political bosses, tend to distance thierselves from the overtly militaristic Junker-types and the murderous Nazis, and rightly so but the basic pride and tradition keeps that basic EK image in the forefront.
Considering that that basic EK shape is now the national military symbol I don't think it's too much of a stretch that someday somebody in the German Goverment will say " Hey, what the heck. Why not?".
Heck, thier current campaign medals show a stylized Germanic eagle and/or the basic EK shape. How much of a stretch is the next step to an EK2k?
And then consider that people like you and I, who pay crazy amounts for a simple piece of iron, are so interested in such a basic symbol. The EK is such a powerful symbol I really doubt that it will be ignored, especially by politicos as it can be so easily twisted as a propaganda tool.
Just an opinion, or more correctly, a drunken daydream......

[J4463]

Eric (and others),

I guess you are right, but given recent history it seems unlikely that Germany would engage in hostilities. My guess is that any conflict large enough to drag Germany in would probably be nuclear anyway and then the game is over.

I am not aware that the "symbol" as it were of the German Army is a shape of the Iron Cross and encompasses the eagle. Does anybody have any pics of this?

Finally, is the Prussian military tradition still alive in Germany? I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with the book "The Conquerors", by Michael Beschloss (sp?) but in that book he states that one of the major objectives of the Allies was to remove this tradition from German Culture. Has that suceeded? What influence do you think that has had modern German ideals and what seems to be the attitudes of Germans today about their past in terms of war and the military? Especially in terms of bringing back a decoration like the EK, which is a symbol of that militarism and tradition?

Maybe this is beyond the expertise of some of us, but if anyone can elaborate, this would be interesting discussion. BTW, sorry to the moderators if this has strayed off topic. Move it if you wish...

[Steve in Florida]

No photos handy, but

look at any photo of a Bundeswehr tank or plane. The Maltese crosses (EK outlines) on the sides of the turrets, the fuselages, and wings are huge. Only things missing on them are the swaz and the date.

The EK would not be a far fetched design for a combat medal for today's Germany (IMHO).

Look at the parabadges. Diving eagle, oak leave wreath, but no swaz (if I recall correctly).

[Ruki vyerkh]

About a year ago I read on www.bundeswehr.de (official site) that the EK was its 'official symbol' or something to that effect. Now, however, there is no English version of the site that I can find. (Budget cuts?) Regardless, at the time I concluded there was open affinity for the symbol.
And in the "well, duh" department, I always have found it odd that the award was not permanently created, a la VC, Medal of Honor, etc., which have been awarded repeatedly - particularly back when - for relatively small scale colonial/intervention engagements.
Anyhow, if I attached it correctly, logo is from bundeswehr.de.
- Paul in Ohio

[Luftm40]

German special operations forces operated side by side with US counterparts in Afghanistan in what I would call significant combat operations. Definitely more than "peace keeping". I'd be interested to know what combat awards, if any, were given to these guys.

[DarryTeo]

German military operation outside their motherland, would earn the most campaign medals for their soldiers. I guess this is a common practice. The soldiers might get some other awards relating to military merit or valor, maybe...

As for the EKs, the awards are given for bravery or valor back in wartime period and it is temporary. Current Germany do have some instituted bravery/valor/merit crosses, which I think permanent.

Maybe, I can make some bold comparisons.

Bundes Merit Medal --> Medal to the KVK ????
Bundes Merit Cross 2nd Class --> EK2
Bundes Merit Cross 1st Class --> EK1
Grand Bundes Merit Cross --> RK
Grand Merit Cross Star --> ?????????

Well, any comments ????

[CSP]

I worked around the German special forces in Afghanistan for the past year. There was a lot of talk of their military pressing their government for reinstituting the EK, as these guys were/are involved in combat operations there just the same as we were... and they desired something to reward any bravery and were looking as well for a service award. I do not know enough about the Bundeswehr to know what standing awards they have. The service awards our DoD is instituting for service by US military forces in OEF and OIF are very sought after by the coalition partners, but as I understand it, require State Department type involvement with the corresponding governments. They can also be - and on rare occasions were - recommended for some of our awards, such as the Bronze Star and the Joint Service Commendation Medal. I am unaware of any US valor awards being recommended or approved for coalition forces.