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**Mark S.** · 01-19-2002, 11:14 PM

It is my firm belief that anything that ever had a swastika on it is now, or has been, faked. Why people put the effort into faking really low end items I will never understand (like the 1935 See Fahrt badge and others) but the financial advantage of making high end stuff is obvious.

You are correct in presuming that the fakers never quite get it exactly right. There is usually something "off" about a fake, but many times such minute details are not readily apperant.

The learning curve in this hobby is steep, but there is really no other way to do it. Ill bet that many collectors put more effort into a single badge than they did when they bought a new car. Sure you can gain a certain amount of confidence by just buying from respected dealers, but in the long run you are only short changing yourself, and yes, those guys mess up now and then too. Thats where the difference is between serious collectors and what I call "accumulaters". The serious collector will be able to see and feel when something is wrong, where as the latter wont. This comes from experience, and taking an active interest in what you are spending your money on.

When you decide to embark on this learning curve, it would be best for you to buy from dealers that are respectable. As you take the plunge, you will learn as well. Keep in mind that this learning curve is continous, it never stops.

I have two points of advice for you starting out:

1. Adopt a ZERO TOLERANCE policy in what you buy. Dont get suckered into weak stories of variations, vet bringback, etc. If you always stick with textbook peices, you will have a collection that you can be proud of with little or no worries. If you arent 100% sure, pass. There is plenty more where that came from.

2. For Gods sake, stay away from the auction houses.

In the mean time, pay attention here at the forum, save pictures when you can, and remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question. It might also be a good time to decide on a focus for your collection. I think its better to know a lot about one thing than a little about a lot. Good luck, and we are here if you need us!

**Warren O** · 01-19-2002, 11:25 PM

The only thing I can add in regards to collecting and fake EK's is don't kid yourself there are fake EKII's made of three pieces that will fool the beginner. Take Marks advice and study before you buy.
Warren

**IFreigeist** · 01-20-2002, 11:26 AM

Iron Cross Variations.

You mentioned variations... All the Iron Crosses 2nd Class 1939 I have are 44mm in length and width, with the exception of one, which looks like a "jeweller's copy". It's un-hallmarked and is 43mm square.

Over the years, I simply had what appears to be the good fortune to purchase these items, among them an EK2 hallmarked "49" in the original {blue paper} issue package with the maker's name on the outside {which matched the hallmark on the ring}. I purchased it in London, England, an area now known for large quantities of fakes and forgeries.

**rkoy** · 01-20-2002, 12:07 PM

hello IFreigiest

get some good books and read them Gordon Williamson has a new book on EK and RK coming out i get it as soon as possible the iron times is a good one also

**Luftm40** · 01-20-2002, 01:19 PM

Great advice from my fellow members. I would also add that the flood of fakes on the market has benefits to the collector as well. III Reich stuff has been relentlessly faked since, well, the very end of the war. As such, there has been an enormous amount of work put into reference material, and any III Reich collector or dealer worth his salt has studied his topic in microscopic detail to avoid getting burned. The result: a lot of corporate knowledge about what is "right" and "wrong". The forum is an excellent place to tap into this. A few years ago, disgusted by the fakery in III Reich collecting, I delved into Imperial German stuff. After a while though, I realized that I felt much safer back in my ocean of fakes. At least I knew the score, and had a body of reference work to help me. I just like III Reich militaria, always have, always will. Don't get me wrong, Imperial is great, but there is very little reference work out there, and comparatively fewer collectors.

**IFreigeist** · 01-20-2002, 03:17 PM

Iron Cross 2nd Class 1939

Many thanks for all the replies; they've been of help. I also became disgusted with all the fakes and forgeries and stepped out of collecting German items altogether, only to find that other areas were limiting, and there was not the attraction. Of all things, I've found that World War Two reproductions encompassed almost anything you could imagine, including the British campaign stars I collected {in some instances, the reproductions were of less quality and more expense than the originals!}.

The best reference I've seen on the Iron Cross in general is V.E. Bowen's "The Prussian and German Iron Cross." I was fortunate to get a copy several years ago, as it's out of print.

By the way, is there any reference or information on maker's marks, specifically; 1) those firms licensed to produce the EK2 and 2) firms whose hallmarks are stamped in relief {ones I have, "19" and "100"} and those which are incuse {"49" and "65"}?

Thanks again!

**Mark S.** · 01-20-2002, 03:30 PM

yea, right here on this website. There is a wealth of information, and I urge you to spend some time looking through the articles.

here is the page where the LDO and Prasi numbers are:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/reserach_tools/ldo.htm

**Hannibal** · 01-20-2002, 04:53 PM

To Mr.Schroeder
Would you tell me why buying from auction house is not a good idea? Have you had any bad experiences with them? because I am thinking about subscribing to a German auction house.
Best regards
Hannibal

**Mark S.** · 01-20-2002, 05:34 PM

I had places such as Ebay, Epier, and Manions is mind when I wrote that. These places are rife with fakes, and it is very easy for a beginner to get taken. Nothing against them personally (except Manions) but since ebay has banned such items, and Epeir is nothing more than a huge fakes-r-us, and Manions...well, lets not go there.....the unexperienced would be better off working with respected dealers.

**IFreigeist** · 01-21-2002, 05:48 AM

Iron Cross 2nd Class 1939.

I purchased two EK2s from eBay before they began banning "Nazi" material from their auction site, and both pieces turned out to be great purchases, primarily because I saw detail photographs and purchased them from individuals selling them at auction. I think what the forum's trying to say is avoid "auction houses" like Manion's and IMA, which publish huge catalogues they charge upwards of $20.00US each for, then only photograph half the material in large groups. In many instances, you end up paying more than you thought you would, and it's never a good policy to buy these kinds of items "sight unseen".

I'm not sure what the deal is with France and Italy, but I know that since the late 1940s, Austria and Germany have had laws on their books dealing with the sale of items with swastikas. A number of EKs are still turning up on eBay, but the sellers are photographing the reverse instead, or simply asking potential bidders to e-mail them for pictures.

Best way I've found to collect items like the EK2 is to purchase from a reputable dealer, that is, if you're doing it by mail order, or better yet, go to a militaria or gun show so you can actually see and touch the item.

**Klaus O.** · 01-21-2002, 09:05 AM

Dear Mr. Schroeder,

What is wrong if I would buy from some Auction Houses in Germany which have a good reputation? Such as "Hermann Historica" (great for WWI and WWII), "Jan Kube" (super for WWI, especially Pickelhauben, Imperial German Orders and uniforms, not so good for WWII stuff) and "Auktionhaus Carsten Zeige" (great for WWI German Imperial Orders and Medals, not bad for WWII stuff). Do you have anything positive/negative to report on them? I would love to hear it.

I noticed that several times German dealers like Detlev Niemann or others put on their online catalogues medals I have seen on HH and Zeige's Catalogues after 1-2 weeks these auctions ended. Since the dealers have to make a profit out of it, the prices of these medals are 25-30% more expensive than the price after they were sold to them by the auction house which already charges usually a commission of 20% plus S&H.

In some cases it's better to try to save some money by buying directly from auction houses, avoiding so paying the dealers' margin of profit.

Cordially,

Claudio Ortelli

**rkoy** · 01-21-2002, 11:16 AM

address

hello all
claudio do you have any of those web address id like to look at them thanks rodney

**Doug See** · 01-21-2002, 01:25 PM

I agree with Mark about Ebay and Epier. Even though I sell and buy on eBay, it is no place for non-experts to buy without some good advice from an experienced person. This goes for Imperial as well as Third Reich items.
Epier is even worse. Anyone can register on Epier without a credit card and you can register as many times as you can come up with a new email address. (If you use AOL, you can have up to 7 different emails under one account). This enables the crooks to bid on there own items to drive the price up and/or create artificial "demand" for the item, often good fakes. I also found evidence that there may be teams operating on both eBay and Epier who manipulate bids. Since a larger chunk of Epier's business is the Nazi items eBay doesn't allow and Epier has a limited staff, I don't think they are as responsive to complaints about fakers and shill bid rings. eBay tries to police their site, but their resources are limited and the faker rings are pretty sophisticated when it comes to cross-bidding and fake server ID's.
There are some good buys to be had on eBay, and a lot of honest sellers, but you have to look closely, read carefully, research the seller's feedback thouroughly, and be a little skepticalabout who is really bidding against you. Unfortunately, German militaria attracts more than it's fair share of crooked dealers. Don't assume that just because a seller states you have 3 days to return any item and he has 1,287 positive feedbacks (many of which may be his relatives, friends, or self), that the item is good. Most ofd these crooks sell good items mixed in with the fakes. These clowns know it will take an inexperienced buyer longer than 3 days to find out he's bought a fake. They play the odds and they are in their favor.

**Luftm40** · 01-21-2002, 01:38 PM

Hi, I've never used E-pier, but with Ebay I look for non-militaria people selling things. This is where the real stuff is, believe it or not. Antique dealers, estate liquidators, average joes selling some stuff from the attic. Every once in awhile you can get a "deal" from a dealer on ebay, but if I'm going to use a dealer for something I would just as soon go to one I know and trust.

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Iron Cross 2nd Class 1939

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