Russian "Fur Raub und Mord" Iron Cross Found

[grueni1208]

I believe it's an old fake-frame with new fake core.
The fake maker used a new background story for a new core-version.
Only 500 pieces > rare version > = more money
The quality is for a russian propaganda piece to good.
The russians produced not in quality, they produced in bulks.
The frame errors are very suspect for this piece, if there were produced only 500 pieces.
The number design (especially 3) on backside is very often to find on fakes.

Regards

Grueni

[Jono]

Agreed. Of course this is all just a matter of opinion, but I've personally never believed in the story. Sounds like a great story, almost made for TV, but considering the conditions, I just don't believe it.

Ditto. At first it seems plausible but once you start to think about it...the war conditions and the fact that the Russians had more important things to worry about at the time...the wheels begin to fall off

They certainly are interesting pieces and if i found a cheap one i would buy it

[Gregory Koepp]

you know I have no idea, I'm not an Iron cross guy.

BUT ask yourself:

Story has been out long before fakers were making fakes. says Gordon Williamson, plus Article he provided.

why would they make one and put in a old wooden tool box? to hide it? I guess

No others anywhere on the Internet?

So as I stated before I posted, it's going to get slammed!!

hope you enjoy the photos though, it will sit in drawer til something comes to light I guess?
I hope someone who can read German will translate the posting I received from Gordon W.

greg koepp

[Al P]

I doubt the early Leningrad siege timeline for the reasons listed by many others before me, but these easily could have been produced later on by any number of firms or jewelers for a number of reasons.


This just might be the original fake EK that was period made.

Take that Souval!


Al

[Jono]

This just might be the original fake EK that was period made.

Take that Souval!


Al

[Hank C.]

I...edited...
The number design (especially 3) on backside is very often to find on fakes.

Regards

Grueni

That's immediately what I thought; if that doesn't resemble a "Floch 3", I'll eat a bug.

Not proof, but pretty damning, to me.

best
Hank
EDIT: Quick comparison to a fake EK2 & fake EK1...definitely NOT a dead-on match to Flocks, but pretty close...Greg's is upper left; other 2 pics courtesy of George Stimson.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here is a compilation of the german text Greg received from Gordon and posted here:

"Based on very few contemporary witnesses it is alledged that 500 of such crosses were produced in the besieged city of Leningrad, presumably in 1942. The order for production was given by the special propaganda department of the policy administration of the Leningrad Front. Via sovjet scouts and partisans (in civil cloths) the crosses were supposedly 'deposited' in small quantities in areas where it was known that German soldiers would preferential stroll around - i.e. in the surrounding of dwellings, bureaus, Wehrmacht homes, casinos, ..."

(a description of the crosses follows and it continues

"It seems complete wrong that the reverse bears the date "1813", especially on the EK1. This seems to be illogical, completely unnecessary and distorting. It reverses the real meaning of the inscription (Fuer Raub und Mord) and reduces it to the absurd.

Maybe that was the reason only 500 were distributed since the propaganda department realized this mishap and stopped the production. So far no mentioning of such crosses in any Wehrmacht news has been found.
It is also questionable whether this method would have had any impact on a Landser and it was also very expensive compared to leaflets.

There seem to be only a very few crosses around. Most likely coming from former propaganda officers of the Lenigrad Front and as far as it is known they are only found in private collections in Moscow and St. Petersburg."

The translation is not a verbatim translation but good enough for this purpose. No date and source of the article is given.

[Jeff V]

Here is a compilation of the german text Greg received from Gordon and posted here:

"Based on very few contemporary witnesses it is alledged that 500 of such crosses were produced in the besieged city of Leningrad, presumably in 1942. The order for production was given by the special propaganda department of the policy administration of the Leningrad Front. Via sovjet scouts and partisans (in civil cloths) the crosses were supposedly 'deposited' in small quantities in areas where it was known that German soldiers would preferential stroll around - i.e. in the surrounding of dwellings, bureaus, Wehrmacht homes, casinos, ..."

(a description of the crosses follows and it continues

"It seems complete wrong that the reverse bears the date "1813", especially on the EK1. This seems to be illogical, completely unnecessary and distorting. It reverses the real meaning of the inscription (Fuer Raub und Mord) and reduces it to the absurd.

Maybe that was the reason only 500 were distributed since the propaganda department realized this mishap and stopped the production. So far no mentioning of such crosses in any Wehrmacht news has been found.
It is also questionable whether this method would have had any impact on a Landser and it was also very expensive compared to leaflets.

There seem to be only a very few crosses around. Most likely coming from former propaganda officers of the Lenigrad Front and as far as it is known they are only found in private collections in Moscow and St. Petersburg."

The translation is not a verbatim translation but good enough for this purpose. No date and source of the article is given.

Hi Dietrich, That whole quote is a bunch of nonsense. Thw only part of it that might hold a shred of truth is that there is very few crosses and they are found in private collections in the former soviet union.
One thing I am certain of is the cross posted by Greg was not made during WW2. best wishes,
jeff

[Don D.]

Why would they make them in 3 piece construction? Where did they get the machinery to do this? Why not just stamp a one piece cross?

[WenRan]

Interesting all the way .
Dietrich , you also believe these crosses are genuine ?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here's the problem:

"Believing" is not "Knowing". I certainly do not know one way or the other. So what I believe has really no impact so I rather do not "believe" anything right now.

However, I have to say that the story in the article is extremely strange....

Dietrich

[Don D.]

Why would they make both 1st and 2d classes?

[Pieter Verbruggen]

...let's say it's a copy...can we post 10 different ones???
Don't think so...
Nobody will make copys and make none or 2 or 3 available....
Pieter.

[münster]

...let's say it's a copy...can we post 10 different ones???
Don't think so...
Nobody will make copys and make none or 2 or 3 available....
Pieter.

This is the most logical statement I have read on these. I have never seen a real one or fake for that matter and that involves seeing mostly every fantasy POS known to man. Maybe the Russians got ahold of some frames and popped out the cores and assembled some new ones with their own motiff? If these were popped out by fakers they would be at every militaria show all year around. Any of the old timers see them at shows in the 60s at one time? Doesnt Detlev list them in his catalog? The "3" Hank pointed out is not a ringer for the ones on fakes IMO.

[AUSGANG]

This should cloud things up even further... These photos were posted by Thomas Hansen (thanks to Thomas) a few months back. This one is a definite one piece casting. So, this is a fake of a fake, a fake of a simulacrum or the real that the three piece is a fake of?????????