Russian "Fur Raub und Mord" Iron Cross Found

[Chris Boonzaier]

Could you please elaborate what posting from Gordon was removed? I was watching that thread and must have missed it.

Thanks,

Dietrich

Gordon posts that he was very sceptical about G.K.s cross (on the current and old thread) I dont see where Greg gets the idea that Gordon is giving his the thumbs up?..

The thread with the comments was zapped completely when G.K. started insulting a member.

This was due to G.K.s tone and language.

best
Chris

[Westmark]

Exactly what propaganda purpose would these serve?? If they were delivered into the hands of German soldiers, would these soldiers be demoralized, or weep at this supposed truth on this cross? It makes no sense as a propaganda tool or otherwise. The Soviets are going to go to all the time and effort to manufacture each one of these pieces while they are being besieged? No, why churn out thosands of cheaply made eaily reproducable pamphlets that may well reach thousands of German troops with our message when we can handcraft a few hundred beautiful iron cross with a really mean message that will get them thinking and may cause emotional distress and maybe just maybe a few of those who recieved this lovely iron cross will surrender Wanting something to be true doesn't make it so. For me it just doesn't pass the smell test.
Best regards,
Todd

[Chris Boonzaier]

Gordon's post of that 1941 is made the same as mine.??

I know some are going to think these never existed but if these were known well before fakers were into making money off IC's as Gordon stated at GMI, BEFORE that posting got removed, due to some rude comments. But was stated by him,, I believe these were made and are a unique War Propaganda item, we have seen items made during Wars that make no sense of why they did it?

I'm hoping someone will come forward or find more information either way.

greg koepp

I am sure Gordon will not mind me putting his post here... it was his only post on the erased thread and you seem to read more into it than i can find there...

"The "Raub und Mord" Iron Crosses are nothing whatsoever to do with the plethora of crude propaganda pieces made in WW1 but are reputedly Soviet made items manufactured during WW2 by the Soviet "Agitprop". They first were brought to light prior to Glasnost and the influx of East European made fake and fantasy Third Reich pieces.
Of course they are now widely faked but it is believed that some rare original examples exist. Interestingly the originals are described as having a non-ferrous centre."

hardly a simple thumbs up to your piece.

[Mike P.]

Exactly what propaganda purpose would these serve?? If they were delivered into the hands of German soldiers, would these soldiers be demoralized, or weep at this supposed truth on this cross? It makes no sense as a propaganda tool or otherwise. The Soviets are going to go to all the time and effort to manufacture each one of these pieces while they are being besieged? No, why churn out thosands of cheaply made eaily reproducable pamphlets that may well reach thousands of German troops with our message when we can handcraft a few hundred beautiful iron cross with a really mean message that will get them thinking and may cause emotional distress and maybe just maybe a few of those who recieved this lovely iron cross will surrender Wanting something to be true doesn't make it so. For me it just doesn't pass the smell test.
Best regards,
Todd

Hi Todd , It wouldn't be the first time a "Marker" of some sort was left with a Dead Body to instill Terror ...and I'm sure they never thought anyone would ever surrender simply because of them. I think you're looking at this the wrong way. The EK had huge Propaganda value ..ever see that EK Leaflet the US produced ?
For example , Here's some background on the Ace of Spades Death Card . Even though it didn't work they way they had hoped ...it was still implemented--
"Some twenty years later, the Ace of Spades was again used by American soldiers — this time as a psychological weapon in the Vietnam War. US troops erroneously believed that Vietnamese ancient traditions held the symbolism of the spade to mean death and ill-fortune and in a bid to scare away NFL soldiers without firefight, it was common practice to leave an Ace of Spades on the bodies of killed Vietnamese and even to litter the forested grounds and fields with the card. This custom was erroneously believed to be so effective, that the Bicycle Playing Cards company was asked to supply crates of that single card in bulk. The crates were often marked with "Bicycle Secret Weapon".<SUP>"</SUP>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_of_Spades

And as I mentioned in my other post ..I don't believe they were "hand crafted" stunning EK's ...they'd be the cheapest, crudest looking hunk 'o junk ..one stamping.

[Mike P.]

I am sure Gordon will not mind me putting his post here... it was his only post on the erased thread and you seem to read more into it than i can find there...

"The "Raub und Mord" Iron Crosses are nothing whatsoever to do with the plethora of crude propaganda pieces made in WW1 but are reputedly Soviet made items manufactured during WW2 by the Soviet "Agitprop". They first were brought to light prior to Glasnost and the influx of East European made fake and fantasy Third Reich pieces.
Of course they are now widely faked but it is believed that some rare original examples exist. Interestingly the originals are described as having a non-ferrous centre."

hardly a simple thumbs up to your piece.

I agree with Chris ..I don't remember Gordon or anyone else giving G.K's Cross the thumbs up. Maybe that's how he read it

[Westmark]

Mike,
I am no expert by any means and I guess anything is possible but this story just seems too far fetched for me. Until I see some hard evidence to the contrary I will stick with my original position.
Best regards,
Todd

[Hank C.]

Exactly what propaganda purpose would these serve??....edit.... For me it just doesn't pass the smell test.
Best regards,
Todd

That's what I've thought all along....

best
Hank

[FW 200]

Maybe they were meant to be found on bodies, by Allied Troops? To spread the story that soldiers were actually decorated for robbery and murder? Todays' news media would run with a story like this! Picture CNN finding medals for murdering civilians on American soldiers' bodies, in Iraq, along with a rumor they were Bush/Cheneys' idea. You would hear about it for the next 50 years.

[Don D.]

Perhaps one of our Russian members can chime in and tell us if they have ever heard of these. You would think there would be hints about these from way back.

[Sal Williams]

Seems that a lot of folks are in contact with vets, They would be the best guys to ask

Best, Sal

[Mike P.]

Besides Collecting main stream Militaria , I ended up off on a Propaganda collecting "tangent" years ago ..Psyops always interested me and that facet of WW2 seems to be overlooked by many.
Over the years I've been able to put together 2 - 3" Binders full of Propaganda Leaflets from all the Countries involved.
Even with a cursory glance through them you can see or get a great "feel" for how they thought back then. A Propaganda EK would not be out of line
Here are my 2 Binders ...

[Mike P.]

Here's the US produced EK Leaflet ..the message ?

ALL OF THESE CROSSES ---

[Mike P.]

Turn Into These Crosses ---

[Mike P.]

With Soviet attempts to "demoralize" the Enemy ..everything was fair game. They even made use of the German Death Card notices --

[StefanK.]

Very interesting crosses....








....unfortualtely pure fantasy-pieces made from a very hard-working and known copier...

I would advise everybody not to waste money on them.

Stefan