Why???

[Dietrich Maerz]

It is curiouis to see how 'here' and 'there' the real issue is diluted!

At both (!) sites the focus is shifted to dealings of other members and away from the actual fact that a dealer sells a proven fake!

The same dealer who already had to take back other Rounders, so he knows what the perception amongst collectors is.

That he uses Gordon's book to bolster the fake is IMHO in so far not right since he shifts the responsibility of genuity to somebody else - in this case to Gordon. I don't think that he does this everytime he posts a Juncker, or does he? That fact alone speaks volumes.

Gordon's book was written 5 years ago! It was a milestone and great thanks has to be given to him that he opened this new approach. At that point in time the Rounder was considered 'good' my many, me included.

Only about 1 year or so ago definitive proof was obtained that the Rounder is a fake. Nobody can blame Gordon for what he thought (and a lot of others!) was right when he wrote the book.

This has happened and will happen to all authors about a subject that has a constant investigation going - every book is just a snap shot.

However, to use this proven error in the book to bolster a fake is not right, IMHO.

Dietrich

[Chris Boonzaier]

Indeed, GW's comments were quite non-commital. One normaly hears that type of "non speak" comming from a politican.

Chet

I think he is politely saying "Personally, from what I now know, I would not buy one today. As to Jamie Cross... ask him."

[Chris Boonzaier]

At both (!) sites the focus is shifted to dealings of other members and away from the actual fact that a dealer sells a proven fake!


Dietrich

No.

I think what the focus has shifted because some find it a huge irony that one of the most vocal people on the beginning of the thread is (I think) the only one involved that has knowingly sold fake RK stuff to members.

The second point is a ridiculous pointing of fingers at GW (by people who should know beter) because Jamie Cross is selling a KC that is recognised as fake.

GW is not Jamie Cross (they are not even spelled the same).

My forum arguments have always been limited to political, I have always had respectful Militaria conversations... this is the first time I have been drawn into a slap and bang militaria thread and I must admit a certain level of disgust with some members, and dissapointment with others that they are so fast to jump onto the bandwagon when it comes to pointing fingers.

GW gave a polite answer as to what he thinks at GMIC. What more is there to say?

[DavidM]

I agree with you that on every dealer's site at one time or another, something questionable has appeared. I guess the point I would like to make is this. Do you, or does anyone else, honestly believe that Jamie Cross believes that he is selling a wartime piece? I think that is the question that should be answered, and using outdated, wrong, or shoddy references doesn't help his case either. I just finished reading the thread over on GMIC, and I don't believe GW's comments on the 'Rounder', or lack there of, has helped any. Only diverted attention away from the cross in question. Just my two cents.

Hello

The point I was making was purely just that, that all dealers have made mistakes and had something questionable offered on their sites.

In this particular instance, on the face of it, this looks like an attempt to sell on an item which most, based on the available evidence, now believe to be a post war made item. Does Jamie Cross know that it is an item now deemed to be post war? The answer to that must be yes, but an another question is does he believe they are post war? This is important because if he genuinely believes them to be of WW2 origin - whether rightly or wrongly - then he cannot feel that he is doing anything wrong. Members on the forums have their opinions and he has his. Whether he believes them to be genuine WW2 items depends on how much you read into Gordons reply to this same topic on the GMIC. There, he notes, that as he understands it Jamie Cross has been in touch with the UK place who tested the 'Rounders' and got a different story to that given out by others. Gordon surmises that Jamie Cross is selling this RK based on his discussions with testers of the 'Rounder', and some of the evidence against them has been contradicted. Gordon finishes that paragraph by saying that people need to contact Jamie Cross to confirm this.

Those on this and just about every other forum view the so called 'Rounder' RK as a post war creation. Based on current evidence and knowledge, I certainly wouldn't buy one. If there is other data on these out there, as hinted at by Gordon, I would be very interested in seeing aired for discussion.

As an aside, I agree 100% with Dietrichs comments:

Gordon's book was written 5 years ago! It was a milestone and great thanks has to be given to him that he opened this new approach. At that point in time the Rounder was considered 'good' my many, me included.

Only about 1 year or so ago definitive proof was obtained that the Rounder is a fake. Nobody can blame Gordon for what he thought (and a lot of others!) was right when he wrote the book.

This has happened and will happen to all authors about a subject that has a constant investigation going - every book is just a snap shot.

Just my pennies worth.

Regards
David

[Dietrich Maerz]

I think what the focus has shifted because some find it a huge irony that one of the most vocal people on the beginning of the thread is (I think) the only one involved that has knowingly sold fake RK stuff to members.

Let me remind you that you were not drawn in but that you jumped in and started to name other people in a perceived 'defence' to Gordon.

Gordon doesn't need that. He is not Jamie cross and he is not responsible for the use of his book 5 years after print. It has been done before.

His answer is clear to me: "Rounders are bad!".

End of subject.

You are free to open a thread in The Kneipe about your disgust or disappointment about other members in your point of view!

[Chris Boonzaier]

You are free to open a thread in The Kneipe about your disgust or disappointment about other members in your point of view!

My time is too valuable.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Chris,

sorry for not realizing how valuable your time is. The multiple postings in this thread made me think you had an interest in this subject. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

Here is the latest answer from Gordon Willimason and I think this should close the subject:

"Obviously when the book was written I was of the opinion, as were many others, that these were wartime. The testing that Allan Pilch had done over here, albeit respresenting a tiny statistical sample, persuaded me of the likelihood that they were postwar.
It would still be nice to have further testing to establish a larger statistical sample, but the cost of the testing probably means that this is unlikely. The discrepancy in opinions from the "paint experts" for want of a better phrase, in the UK is also something could do with being followed up, but for me the subject is not something I have any further interest in."

The only fact that remains open is that Jamie Cross sells a cross that is a fake and that he uses an outdated reference to bolster the wares.

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[Chris Boonzaier]

Let me remind you that you were not drawn in but that you jumped in and started to name other people in a perceived 'defence' to Gordon.

Indeed, because you let them attack him knowing full well the reasons and background why he will not post an answer here.

(May i point out, he was to much of a gentleman to make that all public,.)

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris,

sorry for not realizing how valuable your time is.
<!--IBF.ATTACHMENT_196780-->

Maybe wisdom will come with age.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Chris,

why are you insisting in dragging this thread out and why are you now attacking me?

It is always the same old story: if one allows something to stand (freedom of expression) one is part of the 'conspiracy' - if one corrects or censors, one is the devil. If Gordon is not responsible for Mr. Cross (which he clearly is not) - I'm certainly not for other members postings (including yours, my young friend).

I also do not understand why you try to bend this thread into something that was construed to attack Gordon. It was not and it is not!

And I agree, wisdom comes with age and you still have 15 more years to go till you reach my age (but remember, by then I will still be 15 years older) so you are excused for youthfull exuberance!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Jamie Cross has been in touch with the UK place who tested the 'Rounders' and got a different story to that given out by others.

Just to clarify: He has NOT been in touch with the testers in the UK about the Rounder and therefore he DID NOT get a different story from them.

Dietrich

[mmiller]

Amazing how people love to be antagonists. Ho-hum..... Look how this thread keeps going, and going, and going. The batteries don't even need replaced.

Fact One: Gordon Williamson IS ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS in this Hobby.

And are people surprised, and is there something new, just discovered, with regards to the Dealer involved? How soon we forget the massive incident regarding the Juncker marked Heer Para Badges, that he, by the way, STILL endorses as authentic period pieces! The Dealer has been selling bad stuff for years, and always skewing whatever truths he can muster, to sell his phoney wares. Why does ANYONE take anything on his site seriously? Just put him in the 'DISREGARD' bin, and tell your friends. Stop buying from him. He will go away if the collecting community takes a united stand.

Regards,
Mark

[Dietrich Maerz]

Amazing how people love to be antagonists.

True! And that's why this thread is closed now. You summed it up perfectly!