DOTTED DKiG results!

[Koldun]

There is one for sale at a famous Hamburg dealer site. "Unused condition, still original wrapped in the cellophane paper inside the case."

Hi Dietrich! The "famous" that recently sold FAKE 10 riverts DKiG and then put it in his cataloge like original?

[Dietrich Maerz]

That I don' t know - never heard of that one! Please send me a PM.

[Koldun]

[Dietrich Maerz]

The only ten rivet I know is the one from Deschler. And I stick with that ... a ten rivet cross with a Zimmermann-Type wreath is new ...

[Mike Coleman]

Questions

Please don't take this as my trying to be contentious but I ask out of an attempt to learn. As I look at the elements present and their ratios in the two samples presented there are two areas where I have questions. Certainly with a small sampling I would understand that 1) we may see the same elements present but the amounts present may be a little different due to various factors and 2) we may see some elements present in very small concentration that may not show up in both samples.

The two areas where I have a problem saying that these are the same is in the results of the silver disc and wreath. The disc composition is primarily silver for both but the problem I see is in the secondary elements. The three that make up about 10% of the material are not present in the other disc. Especially worrisome is copper at close to 6%. At that concentration I would expect to see at least some to show up on the second sample.

The other is the wreath. Although they each share 3 elelments the concentrations of the three are far different and in my opinion beyond simple sampling error. That would lead me to believe that there was not just a different die with the same base metal but a different die and base metal. So the questions to me would be: 1) did they make the wreathes in house and if so why change metal and die at the same time? 2) was wreath manufacturing done off site and they changed suppliers? 3) If the wreath was made off site, who made it for them and did that firm make them for anyone else? 4) were both wreathes made pre 1945? The later I guess is the whole crux of this study.

Did this company make any post war crosses that may have been reworked to TR appearance with a new wreath? Did they have a supply of TR parts in storage except for the wreathes so made new ones to make some souvineers for the GIs? I realize some of these questions are unanswerable but at the price these awards are fetching I feel they must be asked and if they cannot be answered I think that should be reflected in the prices asked. Just wondering what opinions others may have.

Mike

[Brian S]

Yes Mike, but what you're not seeing is the suspicious modern compounds. Which explains why some people went into this like a Lion and came out of the lab like a Lamb. Dietrich's comments are pretty much mine, who knows? However, if these don't show up in several German vet awarded possessions, it doesn't speak highly of them.

[Mike Coleman]

I agree

Brian,
I quite agree. Based on only what is presented here I don't think one can say it is or it is not a period piece for certain and certainly scenarios can be created that would lead in either direction. But that is all they are, "created", not fact. Testing of more crosses may very well resolve the issue but this study, so far, has not been the "stake in the heart" that testing was for the "rounder". For me personally, were I to be presented with one of these for purchase and basing that purchase decision on what is presented here at this point I don't think I would want to pay full price for one of these. But I am still keeping an open mind and hope for the sake of those that own these pieces that they are proven to be period pieces.
Mike

[Dietrich Maerz]

Mike,

there are certain things one has to remember or know when looking at the SEM results. First, the SEM only shows elements not compounds and secondly (and more importantly) one can 'probe' with the electron beam into the material. So if one test is done with one specific setting it might only show the surface silver plating, if cranking up the machine the beam goes deeper and might show the underlying Tombak (which is a lot of copper). Also, if one cross has a very thin plating one probes early into the base material whereas on another cross it still shows the silver plating at the same setting. Wear also plays into it.

It is a useful tool, no doubt, but it is NOT the answer to all questions.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

I have a terrific DKiS, my opinion. The wreath is worn. The silver worn down to the tombak in several areas. A Schloss DKiS would show much higher Silver content. SEM would not prove my DKiS to be a fake due to the silver content in the wreath, which is not in the wreath, it's on the wreath.

[IVAN]

Hi Koldun,

I had not save this 10 rivets cross, please can you post a close up of date ?
thanks...sure is ZImmermann wreath and not Godet wreath ?

About firms who made multirivets pieces, it's absolutely not sure that only Deschler's firm have done , probably Godet too.....

about dotted cross........it's again hard for me to believe they are war time....probably ....but I have some doubts....

Ivan

[Mike Coleman]

Yes Dietrich

I agree and realize that only elements are shown and that beam penetration can be varied. But I had assumed, and perhaps incorrectly so, that as many variables as possible would be controled in such a study.So plated areas would be compared to plated areas and worn areas compared to worn areas and beam parameters of diameter, strength and time would be held constant. Material density is not controlable so that could affect penetration but depth of penetration after exposure is measurable. And material densities can be extrapolated from that. But I know that when you assume.......

Anyway, I am going to bow out of this now as what I am saying isn't really contributing to the question we are trying to answer but will continue to follow the topic with keen interest. I hope this thread doesn't die out before conclusions can be made. I do want to express my thanks as others have already done for these efforts. It really takes verification of authenticity abilities a quantum leap forward ( no pun intended ).

Mike