Quantity v. Quality!!

[Dave Kane]

I just don't get it! There are currently more quality items being offered than I have seen in years AND at very fair prices but NO takers. What's going on?
There's constant discussion of very common medals, hats, helmets and uniforms but NO activity on the fine items being offered.....
Right back to a previous post (of mine) regarding quantity or just ONE piece of quality that will appreciate...heck we can at any time p/u common badge, hat or helmet but Knight's Crosses offered at these prices and quality....
Sell all of the common items you have and jump on this seldom seen offering......Just some old wisdom being offered
John

[Dez H]

Dear John
I think mate it all comes down to personal preferences, people buy what they like, when they can afford it. Personally I would rather own say 20 cased Iron Crosses in first class than 1 Knights Cross, but hey that’s just me. Same as I would rather slightly worn pieces in good condition than ones that have just sat around in a factory and never seen the light of day, but hey that’s just me. There’s no right or wrong answers to any of this, just boils down to what makes you happy.

In regards to the high end items, how many people in the collecting field have the money to purchase such items when they have kids, cars, houses to pay for etc. Maybe you might strike it lucky with the lottery and have the money to get those Oaks and Swords but for most collectors $1,000 or even $500 items would be the limit to their purchases.

Don’t stress out John, if you are happy with what you are holding, that’s all that matters.

Regards
Dez

[WalterB]

I don't know about you guys, but this economy has been rather bad for me. I am trying to weather the economic storm and once it passes, look out!

[CRAIGGOODWIN]

I'm with Dez

Don't forget also exchange rates, for us here it is almost double, John could you afford a $14 - 20,000 medal ??? just because you saw it & thought it was a good buy, I'd have to sell my entire collection just to make a down payment !!!
Sorry I'd love to be able to buy it but unless I can move to the US or someone take pity & donates one to me all I can do is save the pics

[Dave Kane]

Fellas, I understand that dimes are hard to come by....but (we) always find them and spend them on things that delight us. Now, keeping that in mind; let's say we sell all of our common stuff and get that ONE iten that will and has been proven to be better than stocks etc., and once in hand start spending the dimes again
suddenly you have a very strong backbone to your collection and the ongoing chase for the things costing those dimes!!
I don't mean to diminish anyone's collections merely share what I have seen as a trend in these 40 years, that being the common stuff will ALWAYS be available while the EXOTIC will be stuffed away in collections demanding very big dollars...
John

[Jody]

Quality VS Quantity

Hi John,
I agree with your statement to some extent. As a kid I always went after high end items first. For exampleI have a RK of the KvK w/out swords, but I don't have a 1st class w/out swords nor do I own a War Merit Medal. I had the RK to the Iron Cross before I had a 1939 1st class. The advice you gave is what my mother always gave me and she is a successful antique collector.

The problem I have now is the cost of this stuff. I see RKs, and some edged weapons selling for more than what I have invested in my entire collection. Frankly if you have a house and car payments, plus children, I can't see coming up with $9,000+ for a single medal and or dagger. Plus compound that with the economy. When times get tight, high end stuff does get tough to move. It is easier to sell something for $200 then for $1000.

That is why when I try to collect I try to buy from veterans and the such. I find it cheaper and more satisfying. Good stuff does come along. My collection and those of my friends is proof of that.

I guess it boils down to how much you want the item and how much you are willing to sacrifice for it
Regards,
Jody.

[Dave Kane]

Hey Jody, speaking of mothers....and they seem always to make sense....mine said " take care of the pennys as the pounds will care for themselves"....it seems to apply then as it would now!
Man, I love the old logic!
John

[Dez H]

John; how much of your collecting interest is for investment purposes? As a side note people collect for different reasons, some couldn’t care less what “nazi stuff” it is as long as it is valuable. Then on the other hand you have people would couldn’t care less what it is worth, it’s the sentimental value, the aesthetic appeal, grandfather’s medals, the history and bravery of individual solders etc. Sure you would be naive not to consider the investment potential, however for most people it’s a hobby that they enjoy learning and meeting other people who like to chat about medals, wars, military equipment etc..and in 10 – 20 years time if it is a rainy day they might get more for it than if they had the money sitting in the bank.


P.S. John do you own any Knight's Crosses, if you do we would all love to see some pictures.

[ChrisJ]

Quality..

Interesting to read the comments posted.
As one collector who tends to go for the "high" end of the market, my own view is that high quality and disirable items will always sell, and will not (except in exceptional circumstances where there is a general ecomonic depression - usually short lived and hitting all sectors) result in a financial loss.
The RK to EK has to be one of the most desirable of pieces for 3rd Reich collectors. I can only quote the British counterpart, the Victoria Cross... a few years ago when I was collecting UK and Commonwealth medals they were going for around 15,000 USD....now they are usually marked up at around the 110,000 USD mark in the auction houses... and a magnitude more for any notible recipient. Our RK's, Oakleaves and Swords are really a bargain when so compared (but for how long ?).
I think that all of us who participate in the forum are first and foremost collectors... but it is worth understanding that investors have in the past, and continue to, put money into high end pieces for investment purposes. It happens with postage stamps, coins and other collectibles so why not our particular interest ?
It is a well known fact that almost all VC's that have come on the market over the past few years have been purchased by one individual who has (it is reputed) in excess of 100.
I have seen the magical RK increase 1000 percent (yes, one thousand percent) since I started collecting and I can see no reason for this trend to cease.
I have noticed that the high end items tend not to sell well on the forum e-stand... dont know why. I hope that the latest postings in the "exceptional items" category will in some way change this perception. I am not plugging my Junckers L/12 as it is sold (pending receipt of funds). But the wonderfull cased oakleaves set is an exceptional piece should have been snapped up immediately. If it were to appear on a dealers site at that price it would disappear very quickly !
I share JohnJ's sentiments, the top quality high end pieces are the exception rather than the rule, and so dont expect to see them offered often, and any serious collection of 3rd Reich medals without an RK to the EK has a serious ommission ! The great stories of wonderfull pieces being picked up for a song do not reflect the fact that most collectors can wait a lifetime without getting such chances of picking up the really rare items in junk shops and car boot sales. .. but its good fun searching "Happy hunting ! "

p.s. A really good buy at the moment is the RK to KVK.... these are seriously undervalued.

[Rick Research]

Naive... but HAPPY

I have never and will never COLLECT for "investment."

For me, anyway, this is HISTORY-- not an alternative to the stock market or swamp land in Florida.

I collect what I like, what I want, and what I can afford after Real Life takes its skim off the top. OK, from the middle and a lot of the bottom too. This is a HOBBY, not the loans department at a bank! Food for the cats DOES come before... even reebon barz!


Know what? I am extremely HAPPY with my collection. Satisfied, pleased, and able to derive many hours of pleasure rediscovering items that have been boxed away for too long.

And I've never lost a moment's sleep or a drop of perspiration worrying about resale, "loss" "gain" etc. Never.

Because in my philosophy, Horatio-- "value" has nothing to do with... money.

[Stijn David]

high end items

Hello,


I really love such high end items but I can just as well enjoy a simple Iron cross 2 nd. class then a Knights cross . To be quite honoust Im glad im no more in my starting stage from collecting as such highe end stuff ( KC, Honour goblet, etc ... ) is becoming way to expensive IMHO => it is spectacular stuff indeed but who from the younger ( or new ) collectors can afford them ????

When you have a wife, home, etc .. and other obligations it becomes quite clear that money is needed in other places and therefore it is much easier to save some money for lets say a EK 1 in case then it is for a KC, and the pleasure off collecting is there in both cases ( at least for me ) .

Anyway everyone has to decide for himself offcoarse where are his limits and what he can afford at a certain time but please guys do not buy for the investement as im pretty sure you love the piece but it might be for a wrong reason => money instead of History.

Anwyay Im very glad to see such fine range of high end pieces pop up recently and keep them comming but also keep in mind that such pieces stay out of the range of most of our friend collectors and collect them for their historical value !!!!!!!!!!.

Cordial greetings,

[Dick Pumphrey]

The high end items are just way to expensive for what they are. These are just war relics. As long as collectors pay these ridiculous prices they will continue to go up. These dealers who price common daggers at $400.00 to $500.00 plus are just plain robbing the collector. The same goes for Knights Crosses at $9,000.00 or more. If they have to hang onto that stuff long enough prices will get better. I will not pay these horrible prices.
That's just my two bits worth.
Dick

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys

I concur with the tone set by Rick and Stijn in this discussion. I'm also aware that there is that golden rule in collecting that states "always start to collect from the top down"

Personaly I think that rule doesn't make much sence. If this was the way to go everybody had to start with the RK with oakleaves, swords and diamonds and if possible in gold. I that case and for obvious reasons there wouldn't be a lot of collecting going on.

I'm in the lucky position that I could buy all of the high end stuff offererd on the e-stand and I have to admit that I thought about doing so. At the same moment and in analysing my reasons it immediately became clear to me that my only reason for doing that would be purely out of an investing standpoint. I would buy it like I buy artwork or stock and not because it would give me great satisfaction as a collector. I'm in this hobby because it gives me great pleasure to learn, to talk to other people to make new friends and to collect as broad as possible. I have no interest at all to lie a wake at night wondering if the price of RK's is rising or faling.

Even without the highend items I think that this is already a quit elitist hobby certainly if as a younger person you would like to start collecting now. Even if you were to limit yourself to one field (e.g Heer/Marine/Luftwaffe) you would need the kind of money only a small percentage of normal working people can afford to ever arrive at the stage where you could say: My collection is complete.

And as with everything in live when things reach a certain value the investors (speculators) will step in and push the collectors out. People who don't know anything about the pieces they are buying and arent in the least interested to know. And where that can lead to probably most of you know. Who doesn't remember Japanese corporations taking over the art and vintage car market in the mid eighties. If they only could get 50% of what they payed for their Bugatti Royal they would be very happy to sell.

So my golden rule would be only buy (collect) what you like to buy (collect) and feel comfortable with paying for. Never look at the top. There will always be others who have a nicer collection than yours but than again why should you compare yourself to anybody else. If you ever reach a stage where you are putting at risk your family, your health or your integrity just for that one peace than you have lost already. Even with your RK you will not find happyness. At best it will give you peace of mind for some weeks and than you will start to realize that everybody else but you own's oakleaves and there you go again.

Always remember there is much more satisfaction in the longing then there ever will be in the owning.

Just my 2cents worth.

KR
Philippe

[Jody]

Collecting

Hi Guys,
I guess I was lucky and started collecting around 1972-73. I finished collecting for the most part around 1983, although I do add to the collection now and then. I admit I was lucky and scored some major items for cheap. The problem I have today is the price of this stuff.

Have you guys seen what they are asking for HJ knives lately? I mean I come from a time when they were $20-30 tops. Now I see them for $400+. I saw one HJ knife for $675, I mean to me that is nuts. It is almost like some dealers are price fixing some of this stuff. KM dirks are $1,000+ for nothing special and that is generally the starting out price. DKs are $1,500 starting out, etc. Price a Fallschirmjaeger helmet-WOW!

What makes a hobby grow and encourages others to join is fair prices and some stability.

This is just my opinion, but I think outrageous prices and better and better fakes are going to be the hobbies downfall.

We have one collector on this forum younger than 15. When I was 15, I could name 30 collectors of the same age range.

I don't see 3rd Reich stuff being a hot item 20 years down the road. Maybe then prices will come down.

Just my 2 cents.
Regards,
Jody

[Dietrich Maerz]

Collection = Investment ??

I always thought - and therefore agree cpmpletely with Rick and all the others - that collecting is the joy of having those precious pieces of history no matter of the value. If we look at all the threads in all areas of this forum maybe 5% is about the high end items (starting with DK and up). The balance is about "common stuff" as John puts it so nicely. I have a black wound badge from my Grandpa who earned it in Russia. Not "common" to me at all. Behind every piece -high end and common- stands the same history with all the blood, sweat and tears. Connecting with this history is possible with every item!
Of course is it nice to have a RK or even rarer and higher awards. No doubt about that. But to sell everything that has been bought with hard earned mony and was at that point in time so precious (and still is), thats what I call investment collecting. Which might not be bad and might work for a lot of people. Chris' example with the VC is perfect - there is a guy in England who buys nearly every cross on the market (for investment?!) I guess if one would need to go for investment there are better returns with some other orders and/or medals.
I collect for the enjoyment and for the history behind it. I hope I can pass it on to my son and hope he will have the same fun and education with these pieces of hidstory than I have. Maybe he will sell it. Then it was a perfect investment for him - he didn't pay anything for it.


Just my thoughts on this