Quantity v. Quality!!

[Jody]

Investment

Hello,
To me the hobby is an investment for those who got into the hobby early. For me it is an investment for I have very little in most of my stuff. My S&L RK cost me $35, and I am sure I can make a profit on it.

In my opinion the guy that pays over $500 for a HJ knife is not making a wise choice.

That is my probelm, the outrageous prices people are asking for this stuff. That is for the so-called common stuff.
Regards,
Jody

[Michigan]

high prices

one thing that every one has forgotton is that high prices also has one other major negative factor. it facillitates the fakers. more money means that the inticment to high quality fakes is ever greater. how long before they make a rk that you cant tell the diffrence? maybe they already have and you just dont know it.

[Jody]

Prices

Hi Carl,
Give it a few years and you will see dealers trying to sell Infantry badges for $400+.

They will get so crazy with prices that no one will want to collect it.

$1,000 is a lot of money for some people. If you just bought from dealers, look what you could buy today with that $1,000. It wouldn't get you too far.

I have seen some teachers show an interest in what I collect, and when I tell them what such and such cost they say forget it.

Some of these dealers are pricing people out of the hobby.
Regards,
Jody

[ChrisJ]

so...

...the the inevitable conslusion is buy today, becasue tomorrow it will be more expensive !

[Jody]

Prices

Hi Chris,
My point is that will people want to collect this stuff if a black wound badge starts out at $200?

Rare stuff will always be a premium, but my problem is with what is being charged for not so rare things. I agree stuff like RKs are rare. Only 3 have come my way in 30 years. So I can see RK prices being high.

Good example is an SS em dagger. At least 15 came my way over the past 30 years with vet buys. I own several nice SA and SS daggers. Are they rare, well I don't think so. I can give you the names of at least 10 dealers who have SS daggers for sale. I bet there are at least 30 SS em daggers for sale on the net today. So they can't be that rare, yet everyone is at least $1,600+ and many are in the $2,000+ range.

A rare item is a real Schwerin Berlin hallmarked U-boat badge or Schwerin hallmarked Auxiliary Cruisers badge. Yet those badges are still under $800. I guess it is based on who has the best PR.

My biggest bone to pick is with what many of these dealers who mainly deal in daggers charge. They are charging RK prices for many items not that rare. I feel it is going to price people out of the hobby. So that is my current rantings for a Sunday.
Regards,
Jody

[Greg S]

I would agree and if I had $10,000 I would. To sell my collection for One Knights Cross I just can't do it. I really enjoy the hunt for the items and the display of my successful hunt as well as the many stories each piece hold. The EKII is just as important to the soldier who received as the RK is to the person who received that. Each tells a story and each is valuable in its own right.

The knights Cross will go up in value just by looking at the History of its monetary value, but like my EKII's would I really sell it for its increased value unless I was on my deathbed or Divorce Court?

Anyway, yes I want one, no I won't sell my collection to get one. I've tried the investment idea with my wife and she hasn't bought into that yet. When she does I will add an RK but not until then, but of course they will have gone up by then.

My $.02

[Perry Floyd]

Not to take up for dealers necessarly but collectors really set the prices. Dealers ask those prices because a collector will come along and buy it.
If a dealer prices a nice camo helmet at $1000 and sells it at set-up on the first day of a show, the next one he gets comparable to that one will be $1350. Why? Because he can sell it...

On another note I agree with Jody on what's really rare. I sold my nice DD Heer helmet, actually traded it and was given $2000 for it. The reason I sold it was a know of 5 in excellant shape right now for sale and felt it would be wise to let it go and put the money in a helmet much more desirable to me and much rarer..

[ChrisJ]

Rare ?

Hi Jody...
While I agree with your comments, we have to add the "desirability" factor in too. Whilst SS daggers are out there to be had, their desirability remains very high.
I suppose that we have to remember that the ranks of the collecting fraternity grows by the day, whereas the pool of material in total is pretty much fixed. The scramble for the top quality pieces therefore inevitably grows.
To go back to my comparison with the Victoria Cross... the VC is not a particularly rare medal at all when compared to the swords or the oakleaves to the EK... and certainly not when compared with the RK to KVK without swords... but why are they so expensive ?...its because they are highly desirable, and no one wants to part with them !
(Thats it from me.. lets revisit this thread in 5 years time)

[Dave Kane]

I recall a thread where-in folks described 'how' they afforded 'their' hobby. I was shocked to read about the 'charge cards', the overtime 'hidden' from wives etc.
The intent of this post was just to enlighten those of (us) who spend hundreds and hundreds over the years and never really accomplish anything to 'pass on, hand down'!
Man, wouldn't it be great IF you could amass a collection, enjoy it, research and study it and STILL have something of real value to pass on?
John

[François SAEZ]

Another view on high end items is to be able to track them:

For some people, including myself, an item, high end item or not, has more interest if you can track it - That drives to the fact that some prefer to go for groups rather than for single items (assuming the items belong to the same group).
To me, an EKII (but it is the same with a RK) has more value and interest if they come in a group than if they come single. A single item, whatever it is, is what it is: a single item - no more.

Another form is to SPECIALIZE in one branch (helmets, Para, KM .....) which gives a "reason" for single items to exist.

Another form of the hobby is to collect items by makers like some are doing for badges and like I did for DKiG

Now concerning the prices, I personally believe that we are only at the beginning - I am use to compare 3rd Reich Prices with Napoleonic prices - I mean, today, price of a RK is equal to an enlisted tunic from the Napoleonic period. But what is sure is that in 20 years 3rd Reich items will accessible to a minority because of 3 factors:
- Prices.
- Knowledge - this is, IMO,; the biggest handicap - more than prices.
- Fakes - look today the SS militaria - How many are going there?

So, IMO, prices will continue to increase, high ends items, groups, single items will be rarer (if originals) than today - Some of you will remember in 20 years the "cheap" price for a RK or an EKII in 2003.

Now, investment or not - clearly, nobody (or a few) can say "it is just a hobby" when money is involved - everybody, if they sell their colllection, wants, AT LEAST not to loose money AND if possible to make some profit - which is normal - if tomorrow I want to sell a L/12 RK I have bought 10 years ago, I am not going to sell it the price I have paid 10 years ago.
The main point IMO, is to know what you collect and why you have such items - for me it is not just a hobby like playing golf or so, I put a part of myself in my collection, so maybe here is the first investment - Your collection is what you want it to be, you don't become doctor by chance - and sorry for the guys who disagree a nice collection is NOT specially a question of money (even if it represents some) it is only what you want it to be, whatever priorities are before. Like people, collections are different - is a collection with 20 RK nicer than one with 5 visor caps? No, they are simply different.

[Prosper Keating]

Perhaps we should think of boycotting dealers. Perhaps we should buy mainly from one another. That's what I do 95% of the time and most of you have seen at least some of my stuff. The Oakleaves advertised on eStand are a very good deal indeed. If I weren'r after something else right now, I'd have bought them immediately. Were they offered for sale by one of the Golden Boy dealers, they would be rather more expensive and would doubtless have been snapped up quickly by someone who buys the dealer rather than the piece. I have a perfectly genuine Spanish Cross for sale. It's fairly priced but it isn't like the snazzy solid silver versions one sees in suspiciously large numbers on many dealers' stocklists. It's been for sale for the best part of a year. Not even a query from anyone. But one just like it offered by a well known dealer a while ago for a higher price sold immediately. I have a DKiG half-case for sale. It's far cheaper than the couple recently offered by dealers. Sure, it's missing its 'hinge' - a flap of leatherette that has simply come unstuck - but can easily be restored. Buyers? Yes...sure! Offering me so little for it as to border on an insult. In fact, I put the price up after the last such offer! But it's still not as expensive as a dealer's offering.

Conclusions to the comments in this thread? I think most of the serious collectors in our field would agree that no more than 20% of people circulating in our hobby are serious. By "serious", let me hasten to add that I do not mean 'rich'. I am referring to attitude. If prices tumble, then I will be very happy indeed! I think a lot of this stuff is obscenely overpriced but we can't blame dealers for this. They will charge any price they can get away with. The prices have been driven up not so much by rarity but by a comparitively small number of millionaire collectors - many of whom are not 'serious' - for whom $200k for a Victoria Cross is like $200 for an EKII for Joe Normal. For these people, $20k for an RK group is chump change. They amass large collections of top end stuff which, being rich dilletantes, they then throw in a room and forget when something else crops up to fill their empty days. like collecting Bugattis or classic motorcycles. And because these people don't need the money, those medals, badges, uniforms and documents remain forgotten in locked rooms, never to see the light of day until the 'collector' dies and the lawyers auction the whole lot off...to the top end dealer who conned Mr Moneybags into spending millions on it in the first place. . Look at the Victoria Cross, for instance. The millionaire ex-Treasurer of the British Tory Party owns more than 100. And he pays what it takes to feed his addiction. Fine. But not only does this drive the price up to the $170k referred to by my friend Chris Jenkins (Hi Chris!) for a 'run-of-the-mill' VC - no VC is 'run-of-the-mill' but you know what I mean - it makes it virtually impossible for anyone to have one as many of the others are owned by regimental museums or families. And what will happen when this 'collector' dies? Unless he has left them all to regimental museums or the State - which will be a tragedy in itself - they will hit the market in one big auction and those collectors who have taken out a second mortgage to buy a VC will be left holding a large chunk of negative equity as the bottom falls out of the market.

As for RKs and their add-ons: they're very pretty and I love them, as you know. But the important part of the award remains the document. That's the rare, valuable part. The cross is just a shiny gewgaw. A beautiful one, to be sure, but at the end of the day, unless you collect an ultra-rare manufacturer, an RK is not very rare. Look at the numbers offered for sale at any given time. You can always buy one...if you have the money to pay the artificially inflated prices, hiked up by a cabal of dealers profiting from the gullability of a small number of rich collectors and people with more money than sense.

Let the bottom fall of the market! Perhaps we'll get some perspective back in this hobby then. And perhaps we'll then attract more new blood under the age of forty. Because if we don't, then who is going to buy our stuff from us when we're old and need the money for wheelchairs and lapdancers?

Rant over...

Prosper Keating

[Sebastian Bianchi]

There are several interesting points made in this thread. The original question of quality vs quantity is indeed a matter of personal choice but of course it is influenced by affordability. Some folks would rather have 10 pilots badges than one Knights Cross, a very rational choice, while others simply do not invest the (large) sums needed for the rarer items either by preference or circumstance.

My time in this hobby is a matter of single digit years but my work on this website has allowed me contact with hundreds of folks and I have seen a definite pattern emerge, which I can put in roughly three steps.

- The first step; a large majority (if not all) collectors start out with a very eclectic approach, getting badges, uniforms and almost anything here and there as the mood strikes.

- Eventually, most seem to find a niche and move the second step by specializing in Heer/Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine badges, Iron Crosses, uniforms, ribbon bars, etc (or a even a combination, but always more defined).

- An even further step is the third step and it is often taken to named groups and so called “higher end” awards. Save for a handful of privileged individuals, I know or have not heard of anyone starting from the top down.

I have seen this pattern in my own comparatively short collecting career and in many, many other friends and collectors. In each step the pleasure of collecting is the same, but at the point of the change there is a peak (I will never forget my EK II, my first group, my first RK, etc). One never completely leaves any of the previous steps (I will occasionally get something totally unrelated to my field), but some of the earlier buys are sacrificed for resources sake (money, room, etc). Also, every step is burdened by a higher cost since you are now searching for specific items. I would be interested to know if others have noted this pattern as well, and your thoughts on it.

The question of investment vs. collecting is one that has been discussed multiple times on the forum. If someone is using this hobby as a pure investment vehicle they are rather adventurous, and considering all the research you need to do it would be exactly worth it. Those who collect however DO have an investment in their items. Let’s not kid ourselves here, we classify this activity as a “hobby” which gives it a recreational air but the serious collector is not amateurish, he is a professional. When you reach a certain level you would be extremely negligent not to consider all aspects of your collection, including the monetary value of your items and the means to protect and cover your investment. Yes, your <b>investment</b>. Money also comes into effect in the steps above; profit from early buys facilitates moves toward more eccentric purchases.

Getting back to the comments on this thread Jody’s case is completely atypical. Jody, I have to disagree with you that the dealers set the prices, the collectors do too and are just as much to blame. Not only do we buy the items as has been mentioned, we also sell them. In fact, every time you sell something you price it for above what the top dollar dealer would sell it at. I mention that not to point an accusatory finger but only to expose what I view as an inconsistency in your logic. I should also add that you have wonderful items acquired (as you often point out) in the “early days” when pop was a dime and movies were a dollar, but this is not a specialized collection otherwise you would see that some items are indeed rare and hard to come by. Not to say that you will not find them, but you may have to wait months. May be those SS daggers have different makers, grips, I don’t know I’m not a dagger collector but you get my point. They are each desirable in their own right.

Last point - this market is not falling. I will only go up. The bottom is securely in place, and it will stay that way for ever. Buying from each other however is a great idea, and that is why the e-stand is there. I have recently purchased (and sold) some very nice items collector-to-collector and I am very happy with the results. In fact, I could not be happier.

This has to be one of the longest posts I have made in a long time, I really found this thread interesting and was thinking about responding all weekend (time did not permit until today).

Thanks for reading,

[Tiger 1]

Hi guys,

There's a lot of truth and wisdom posted here. There are collectors and there are investors. The true collector in any field collects for the love of the chase and the various personal reasons such as the pursuit of knowledge associated with an item or the ability to hold history in one's hands or just plain personal satisfaction. The true investor on the other hand is motivated by profit on his investment with little regard to what the commodity may be.

These are obiviously hypothetically pure charactorizations. But having said that I am willing to wager that most collectors of Third Reich militaria are much closer to the collector example than the investor one. This is not to say that collectors are foolhardy with their money and have no regard for a possible profit upon resale of their items. I am saying that for most of us this isn't the primary reason for collecting or even close in priority. For the investor there is no other way to look at these items but as a commodity. The investors may have a modicum of interest in some items but just superficially to the extent of profit making.

There is an old but very truthful saying in the art world that goes something like this. "Buy the painting, the sculpture, the print or whatever it may be because you like it and it brings you enjoyment. If it happens to appreciate in value over time that is but an added bonus and a nod to your good taste. But if you buy the piece as an investment, it will never truly bring you joy and pleasure and may not turn out to be the investment you have wished for."

The interest in collecting items from the Third Reich era has driven prices to astonishing levels. This escalation of cost has been foisted by the various "dealers" who will callously explain away their pricing as "what the market will bear". While this may show some short term gains, in the long view this approach will damage the future market as the prices will be way too high for new blood to enter the field. Couple this with the unwanted attention of counterfeiters and fakers, the field of Third Reich militaria becomes a veritable minefield that few will eventually want to venture into.

I have been collecting German militaria for over 35 years now. At times I wonder whether it is worth the effort and the monetary expendature. For me it still is as I view it as a lifetime interest, one that has gotten more difficult but still satisfying.

Looking at the numerous overpriced, absurdly over graded items ( Exc ++, Mint - , Near Mint 98%, Stone Cold Mint, Restored to Mint, Brought up to Mint, and other such nonsense.) amid the fakes and repros is certainly a cause for concern about the future of our "hobby". I guess all that goes hand in hand with German militaria becoming more acceptable as collectables in general.

What ever your reasons for collecting ....Good luck and good hunting!

[martin]

Sigh

For me it's just a case of affordability.

After some long and hard thinking I have decided to go on a temporary holiday from collecting simply to clear debts. I can then go into top gear collecting with a clear conscience and also be able to sleep at night without seeing the bank manager in my dreams/nightmares.

It's just too easy to get that old jolt of excitement every time a new piece comes along and spend, spend, spend.

ETA for mission Clear Debts is July.

After that I have a hit list.

To be honest I have a dealer on the look out for a Juncker RK for me on a trade in basis just now...fingers crossed!

[DaveJ]

I too have been collecting for alot of years and still have not figured out what I like, I like it all. To sell off all the smaller items for that 10K medal, it would be hard but then I would have the fun of getting all of those smaller items again. All my friends know what I collect, and being the military I transfer around and run into peple again and they ask if I still collect, They have been in my room with the uniforms and styro heads, riker mounts on the walls, ect. I enjoy sharing my collection almost as much as I do getting new pieces, I did say ALMOST.
I will say that I have never had 10K to spend and all of my stuff was purchased over time. It has been mentioned here also, if you want to sell that 10K item, who will buy it? I am not Nieman, or Wolfe, or Bill Shea, with the reputation and clientel. I would have to wait for ever to sell or take less than I wanted and boy if I needed to sell that item in a hurry due to a need for cash, I guess I would take that in the shorts.
It has already been summed up, I do not collect for investment, I do not have any kids to leave this stuff to, who would just sell it anyway, I am going to use mine for life support and lap dances with (not from)Prosper, oh and let the wife spend some too.