"Light Juncker" Deutsches Kreuz

[Dietrich Maerz]

Especially the die flaw at the 9 o'clock position makes me believe that the wreath of the fake cloth was somewhat cloned/casted from the original but with the usual lack od fefinition.

There are other surface details that let me believe that the wreath is a clone.

However, the wreath's of my cloth versions don't have the 9 0'clock flaw either - contrary to the metal Juncker version I consider correct !!???

The rivets of the fake cross are also different.

[IVAN]

@ Dietrich, I don't think there is a early "late" or a late "late" type, only a heavy and light type ( and of course light is done after the heavy ones). Yours is in cupal and for that is light and can be taken for references, it has only a variant catch system.

I have done some comparisons in other threads and you can be free to support here if you want...

@ David, so as you say for you too all light version are fakes .

I don't think so, for me till today light Junckers' only the 2 fake versions showed here ( first example started the thread and Detlev's fake) are fakes. It exist original light Juncker DK.

[DavidM]

Hello

Dietrich, not all the cloth DKs appear to use the Junckers wreath, e.g. they don't exhibit the flaw on the '9' numeral and appear to be from a different source / maker. I have done a very rough and ready 'poll' as it were, and from examining 22 cloth DKs, (good qualitiy close in photos in the main), two didn't have the '9' numeral flaw, with the wreath differing in style from the Junckers. So it is probable that your cloth DKs just happen to be the style using a different wreath. Returning to the heavy / light debate, I agree it is possible that the wreath of the suspect light Junckers could well have been cloned in some fashion from an original - maybe with some over zealous worker removing the flaw on the '9' numeral in the belief that it was, say, a casting artifact. If the wreath is cloned / cast from an original won't the size of the wreaths differ from known original ones ? Does anyone have measurements for the heavy and suspect light wreaths, or can anyone get such measurements ? This would help towards establishing further solid data on these DKs.

Ivan, on the back of what I have said above, in order to establish which of these Junckers are fakes, further measurements may be needed, especially if we explore the opition that the fakes are cloned / cast from originals. I still feel that the light Junckers I have seen so far are suspect. I would dearly love to be wrong on this, but the evidence so far doesn't support this. Please show your photo analysis of the different Junckers, and of any light Junckers that you have or have photos of, as this would assist in determining what we are looking at, and looking for.

Regards
David

[Dietrich Maerz]

Finally, here's is Stef's cross. I'm sure he can answer any questions.

[Dietrich Maerz]

reverse

[Dietrich Maerz]

Date

[Dietrich Maerz]

12 o'clock wreath

[StefanK.]

thanks, Dietrich!


The cross was awarded in Sept. '42.


Stef

[IVAN]

...seams to be a heavy type...not later light type ..

[DavidM]

I just checked my unmarked Juncker that was awarded in early 1942. It weights 63,8g and has the same hinge/pin setup as cook's. If necessary i can provide pictures of whatever detail. Since i am no a.m. any more i can only send them to the email account of another member who may post the pictures.
Stefan

Hello

Stefans DK is indeed an early heavy type. No flaw at this stage on the '9' numeral, and nothing visible on the wreath such as flaw on the leaf at the 9 o'clock position.

So are the wreath flaws a gradual, progressive development, such as the '9' numeral flaw, or did, for example, the flaw at the 9 o'clock position just suddenly appear with the light Junckers while the '9' numeral flaw dissapeared ? Did Junckers carry on production after being bombed out, and if so is it feasible that they made a new wreath die or bought in the wreaths for their DKs ?

I haven't, so far been able to match the light Juncker wreaths to anything else as yet, which suggests to me either a new die, or as Dietrich has put forward, a post war clone of an original. Given the other evidence and data at present I would suggest the latter. I would dearly love to be wrong on this as it would establish these light Junckers as genuine pieces, (and make quite a few collectors happy).

So Dietrich, Ivan, based on the available evidence so far what are your thoughts now ?

By the way Stefan, a very nice DK that you have there.

Regards
David