Ek2 Ubergrosse

[RICK S]

HI ALL:
Lets try this question again. This time please don't respond unless you have significant input. The current facts are dims. 47.02 height, 46.98 width.4.49 thick and 22.80 grms. Sold by a reputable dealer on a consistant basis known as Ubergrosse. These are supposed to be the fore runner to the RK at dims 48.0MM. My question is simple Gordon Williamsions book references an Ubergrosse at 47.5mm. Does anyone have one , or have one of these at that dimension. If so please post detail pics and dims. Also does anyone have proverences on these cross's. It has been said or thought that maker #47 mfg these pieces. Does anyone have proverences of this. I'm having trouble about the poor mfg standard applied in the mfg. process as some indicate. .025 mm undersize all around if difficult to acheive without a jig fixture , Can any one shead some light on this for me. Where they rejected RK'S that didin't make the grade filed down. Questions ????? Help.Looking for answers that make sense.

[schinkel2]

I’ve often wondered the origins of these, as I have a few of them.
Just would like to know why they made crosses in two different sizes, obviously excluding Schinkels and #24s but why make a cross a complete different size?
Was there some reason behind it?
I guess no one will ever know!

[DavidM]

Hello

Aside from the one referenced in 'The Iron Cross of 1939' by Gordon Williamson, there is one referenced in 'The Prussian and German Iron Cross' by V E Bowen. Bowen describes the one photographed in his book as being:

Oversized 1939 Iron Cross 2nd class, with iron insert and well toned silver rims. Dimensions = 46.5mm x 46.5mm. No marks. Weight 22.5 grammes ............ It is believed the oversized (Ubergrosse) EK2's were made in Autum 1939 as a few prototype samples.

Bowen doesn't state what the Ubergrosse were the prototype for, but there is an inference that these were prototypes under consideration as RKs.

The dimensions are, to some extent irrelevant. Given the amount of hand finishing that would go into a prototype, as also occured with the eventual production RK, you are bound to find differences between these, as you will with any genuine RK, EK etc. The difference between 47.5 and 47.02 is nothing on a hand finished item. Gordon in his book points out that:

Examination of several examples revealed slightly differing dimensions and weights suggesting that these were manufactured by more than one firm.

Given that they were manufactured from real silver plus the size difference, I personally subscribe to the prototype RK theory. As all sources agree, there is no evidence to support this, but as Williamson mentions on page 66 of his book:

One issue of the well known mini booklets sold by the Winterhilfswerke (WHF) organisation as fund raisers and entitled 'Des Fuhrers Kampf im Osten' illustrates an Ubergrosse alongside a standard Iron Cross First Class and a 1914 Second Class with 1939 Clasp. The Ubergrosse is captioned as 'Das neue Ritterkreuz'.

Not conclusive proof I admit, but at least a pointer supporting the prototype RK theory.

I hope this is of interest to you.

Regards
David

[schinkel2]

So its probably a prototype RK!
But why make it as a second class?
Guess these are questions we will never, but it would be nice to find some truth to it.

[RICK S]

Ek2 Ubergrosse

Thanks for the response Dan & David.
I feel the same as you guys. I have a question for Dan. Are all your ubergrosse ek 2 the same size dimensions how about the frame & and core? Are they the same or different? I'am trying to get detailed pics on the largest 47.5mm frame to the smallest at 46.5mm so we might look to determine how many manufacturers there were if possible. View the differences if any. There are about 11 listed on the forum stats. It would be great if we could post them all for view. Cooperation by the owners would be appreciated. I'm also intrested where the connection to mm #47 got started. To me this indicates that someone knows more than the average collector.

[LuckyLuudje]

Rick,

Maybe it helps in your search:
Mine is 47,2mm * 47,2mm.
The weight is hard to measure with the ribbon attached but is Approx. 25 gram.

It's posted here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=ubergrosse

BTW:
Never heard or found information that Erhard & Sohne made any EK.

regards,
Luud

[RICK S]

Ek2 Ubergrosse

Hi Lucky:
Yes this is what I was looking for, an ek2 ubergrosse size with a different frame and dimensions or at least hand finished differently. As I stated before one well known and respected Dealer has sold at least 4 in the past 2 years all listed as dimensions 46.98mm. I happened to purchase one which I'm very happy with. Notice the cut out frame to make way for the swaz clearnace on the core @ 4,8 & 10 o'clock. Pics of frame @ swaz, front frame & core shot and rear same for view and comparision. Looking for differences. If yours is 47.2mm and mine started out at 47.2 or larger and was hand finished to current size of 46.98- 47.02mm then I would expect to see same frame and possible core. Whats your thoughts? ALSO NOTE FRAME FLAW @ 6 O'CLOCK

[RICK S]

ek2 UBERGROSSE

Front

[RICK S]

Ek2 Ubergrosse

Rear

[RICK S]

Ek2 Ubergrosse

Front Date

[LuckyLuudje]

This is the best picture I have for now of my EK2.
I think the cross is made by the same maker.
Mine doesn't show the flaws yet, but most I have seen before have the same 6 o'clock flaw.
Mine also has the cut out at swass.

I haven't encountered an overzised EK made by another maker.
But I also never really searched for these oversized EK2's

Like David mentioned there can be a big difference in sice in handfinished frames of an EK2.
I have for example 2 R3's made by the same maker, one is 44,7mm, the other is 44,1mm.

Regards,
Luud

[LuckyLuudje]

6 o'clock

[RICK S]

Ek2 Ubergrosse

Hi Lucky:
Reply appreciated. At first I didn't see the inner beading of your cross on the link provided untill I looked it over with magnification. Yes it appears to be the same frame and thus the same mfg. I guess I'm still searching. Many have said that there were more than one mfg. Please lets see them.