Schinkel EK1 with screw plate

[ben bijker]

Thirdly,there seems to be way too many of these one piece Schinkels with unusual attachment devices. Genuine Schinkel EKIs are rare and not readily found. Maybe someone is feeding the wants of the market place?

Tony[/quote]

That's what we think is going on!

ben

[nonameno]

Hi Ben,
I started this thread because I was hoping to buy the listed EK from Claus Philipp, but as has already been stated, it sold before my request was received.
Here are some pictures of a Schinkel EK1 one piece that Detlev sold last year. I used to own one exactly like this that I sold. I do not have any specs on it, but I believe it to have been original.
Thank you,
Curtiss
nonameno@aol.com

[ben bijker]

Hi Curtiss,

at first I liked what I saw, like I mailed you.
Upon closer inspection there were several things I didn't like about this cross, I mailed you that as well.

The pics are low-quality, and it's very hard to make a good judgement based on them.
But the cross IMO has minor differences in finish, date and swas (as far as it's visible) and a very odd and unusual set-up.

My good friend Lucky Luudje owns a 3-piece Schinkel with the same set-up, but that cross is 110% original.

I already mentioned the odd color.
Could be the lightning, but the cross from Detlev looks more like polished aluminum, just like the cross Lucky Luudje posted.
None of the crosses I have seen lately looks like silver, they all look "white" ....

If these are copies, then they are very well made, and you need better pics from the side of the cross and the needle to be sure.
Weight and dimensions could be important as well

I think that someone may be casting these Schinkels and selling them off slowly.

Ben

O, and this is odd as well:
The places that show wear on these "new" pieces, NEVER show brass colour.
The silver on originals is only a very thin plating, and wears down pretty easily.

[LuckyLuudje]

Those one-piece Schinkels are like you guy's mentioned before very rare.
It took me more then 1 year to find my first One piece Schinkel.
Nowaday's it seems much easier

As for the cross Niemann sold I'm also not very sure.
I would love to handle this in my hand.
This exact same setup is found more on the Schinkels we suspect.
The setup is very close like the ones I like on the Schinkels that are IMO wartime. But all the individual parts are not a match.

Look at the sides of the These One piece Schinkels.
The upper cross is a picture of one of the suspicious crosses.
The lower cross I'm 100% sure it's a wartime one piece Schinkel.
It's dark now, so this picture is the best we have right now.
The sides look that it's stamped like it should be.

And specially to Ben: more than 100% is IMO impossible
What's next? 200%...500%?
This is also one of the reasons why we have so many classifications of mint !
(and mostly isn't even close to a near-mint condition)


Regards,
Luud

[ben bijker]

And specially to Ben: more than 100% is IMO impossible
What's next? 200%...500%?
This is also one of the reasons why we have so many classifications of mint !
(and mostly isn't even close to a near-mint condition)


Regards,
Luud[/quote]

Well, I was indeed referring to Stone -cold friggin mint etc ...
That's over the top as well.

ben

[LuckyLuudje]

better picture of the one with clamshell wich I posted earlier

[LuckyLuudje]

.

[jani_tiainen]

That is getting interesting!

I only have same type that was mentioned to be owned by Lucky Luudje, 3-piece Schinkel construction.

One piece Schinkel like that has been on my wanted list, but have not got it because for me it has been suspicous (Not necessarily fake - but ....). It has been offered though (too)many(?) times...

Jani

[Tiger 1]

Hi guys,

A few more thoughts on the subject. Just my opinions here.

Personally the only Schinkel style EKIs that I am comfortable with as being genuine are the conventional three piece construction. Even then a careful scrutiny of each piece is warranted.

A question we have to ask ourselves is why would the German government accept a one piece Iron Cross when the specifications for three piece construction were plainly laid out? As we know, the LDO came down with a harsh warning to manufacturors using alternate materials. How could a sad example of workmanship as these one piece EKs are be condoned?

Now some may counter with the notion that these were not original award pieces but commercialy available items. Possible, but this also begs a question. Why would anyone, upon being awarded such a prestigious award very early in the war, choose to buy such a poorly(read as cheaply) made example that doesn't even come up to the quality standards of a regulation EKII? I would like to hear a compelling arguement by someone advocating that position as I certainly can't make one to satisfy my curiousity.

Material shortage for medals and decorations was not an issue at the time of production of Schinkel EKs. These were not later war produed. Even late in the war the quality of the EKII, EKI and Knight's Cross was exemplary in materials and construction.

I have been collecting EKs for quite a while now and I can tell you that genuine Schinkel style EKIs are rare. The 1939 Schinkel EKI that I have in my collection is a three piece example with a typical Meybauer hinge, pin and catch assembly. It was brought back from WWII by a US para vet and I bought it from his estate last year. This Schinkel EKI was more difficult for me to find than either of my 1813 EKIIs or the six 1870 EKIs I have owned over the years. That is why I am perplexed and somewhat saddened by the sheer number of these one piece Schinkel style EKIs that appeared on the market fairly recently. As I said before, it certainly looks like someone is feeding the wants of the marketplace.

Just some thoughts.............

Tony

[Don D.]

You make some good points Tony. The only reason I can see for a cheap one piece would be for field wear. Since they are usually nonmagnetic you wouldn't worry about rust and if you lose it while dogging bullets it would not be a great loss.

[Sal Williams]

While the components themselves may all be good - and I think probably are - I do not think they started life together.

There is absolutely no wear or patina on the reverse of the cross consistant with this attatchment device having been rotated on and off it over the years - as can be clearly seen on the example below.

Nice bits, not a 'set' though IMO..

Marshall

I disagree that there is no wear or patina evidence on the rear of the cross. If you look closely there is indeed some evidence. As to originality I can not say.

Best, Sal

[Tiger 1]

You make some good points Tony. The only reason I can see for a cheap one piece would be for field wear. Since they are usually nonmagnetic you wouldn't worry about rust and if you lose it while dogging bullets it would not be a great loss.

This arguement would be a non starter. Why? As I understand reading somewhere (sorry the reference has slipped my mind at the moment) that decorations such as the Iron Cross would be replaced thru official channels should they be lost in combat or otherwise.

Tony

[Don D.]

Then why would you need the LDO private purchase market?

[ben bijker]

Tony,
don't forget that Schinkels are early pieces, that is pre-LDO regulations.

You could get a replacement if you cross got lost, but you could also buy yourself another one, even ith KC's.

I have seen the von Buschhausen group: 2 kc's
The Wilhelm Wegener group: 2 kc's
I have even seen one group that contained 3 kc's.
Impossible?
I had the same idea, but the person that showed them to me has no interest in altering groups.
He has proven to be very reliable, and always offers me extremely nice stuff.

Don may be right, a "simple" piece for field wear, on the other hand it may have been an experiment, or a producer that wanted to boost his margin.
That I don't know either, but I fully agree with Jani and Tony that to much of these rare crosses are offered for sale lately.

Regards,
Ben

[Tiger 1]

Don and Ben,

I'll try to answer the last two posts.

The LDO private purchase market is just good business on the part of the manufacturors. Any government purchases items at a price point for a basic level of acceptable quality. The Germans were no different. Certainly the pocession of multiple awards was not uncommon. The Award document or urkunde was more important than the award itself. It's value lies in the fact that it proves the right to pocess the medal or decoration.

Most manufacturors also made better quailty to high quality pieces for those that were authorised to pocess the original award and had the means to pay extra for these upgraded pieces. Why would anyone buy a lesser quality piece than what was awarded initialy?

Yes, I am aware that Schinkels were pre LDO.

I am also aware that the specs let by the government specified that the Iron Coss I & II classes as well as the KC will be made of two stamped neusilber frames (800 silver in the case of the KC) and a blackened iron core.

I have not found anywhere that a one piece EK is permissable. No, I haven't found that it wasn't initially not permissable either. But, I think that the specs for a three piece construction speaks volumes. Let's not forget that many manufacturors had the previous experience of making quality Imperial awards in their resume.

Besides, this was a time of nationalistic and military fervor in Germany. Knowning the German reputation and penchant for precision and quality craftsmanship, why in God's name would any company, with pride in it's workmanship and products, produce such a poor quality example of one of their premier military awards? I just don't see it.

Tony