Early high quality EK 2 (Juncker?)

[Paratrooper]

Hallo,

i want to show you an very special unmarked EK2 from my collection.
It's manufactured in a very high quality. The core is perfectly fit in the frameset and it's a very heavy piece. The grooves of the beading goes all down up to the edge.

The special is that the core is formed convex like i know it from Juncker kc' , also the beading sample in the inner corners lets assume me that it's maybe a very early Juncker piece.

I would be pleased about any assistance!

Here are the datas:

• high: 43,84 mm
• width: 43,83 mm
• thick: 4,24 mm
• weight: 20,8 gramms
• swast: 8mm to 8 mm

The pictures

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/19.04.06/dmielh.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/19.04.06/cgc6u6.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/19.04.06/gxd5qk.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

[ronsel]

Could it be an unmarked Deschler? Very nice cross, by the way.

[Paratrooper]

Unfortunataly i have no example in my big database and don't find any by searching, but I think it's rather a Juncker.

Thank you and let see what other members write.

Regards
Andreas

[franki]

Hello,

all in all as it is here depicted it is a Juncker Cross.
Date and frame match to manufacturer.

To the core: the slightly convex formed core do not be quite uncommonly at Iron Crosses. They have been used at other manufacturers as well.

Best Franki

[Paratrooper]

Hello,
To the core: the slightly convex formed core do not be quite uncommonly at Iron Crosses. They have been used at other manufacturers as well.

Hi franki!

Thanks for the information and also thanks for the lesson with the convex formed cores.

Regards
Andreas

[George Stimson]

What about this one?

[George Stimson]

Obverse center detail.

[George Stimson]

Reverse date.

[Paratrooper]

That is the "normal" or better that is the more well-known version manufactured in later times of war.

Here are pictures from a marked piece with a good opinion from Niemann. It has the same beading sample in the center corners as both examples above and the dates have also the same form.
I think the piece from my collection is from the pre-LDO period. Dates have the same form but more thin and the cross is somewhat smaller what is also a sign for a pre-LDO piece.

The mass are:

high: 44,4 mm
widh: 44,5 mm

Unfortunately I have only censored pictures.

Regards
Andreas

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/19.04.06/5zlblc.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/19.04.06/1txxw.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/19.04.06/sb16kd.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

[George Stimson]

Well, now we're getting somewhere! I've posted my EK several times with no conclusive responses.
Okay, what about this one, then?

[George Stimson]

Reverse.

[Paratrooper]

That makes fun.

This is a typical "100" W&L. The form of the 3 is the sign of that cross and the safest indication of the difference to an Juncker.

I'm not sure but i think that maybe Juncker dilivered frames to W&L ore W&L to Juncker because not in all cases but often the frameset looks the same.

Here is my unmarked "100" for showing which I mean with the other 3.

Sorry for the indistinct photos, but i think you can see the imporrtand part.

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/12.04.06/4hv451.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/12.04.06/kfacoo.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/12.04.06/ge1roj.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

<img src="http://www1.file-upload.net/12.04.06/4p1rc1.jpg" alt="Gehostet bei File-Upload.net" />

[MH184]

What is the premise or even reason or so called evidence for the theory for W&L is associated with Juncker by supplier means ?? It's apparent that the forgers have used these crosses in past.......or indeed thought as much. I'm a little confused by all this.

How did this all arise, if I recall it's one members theory ?


This is a L/12 marked Juncker cross from Detlev also.

[Paratrooper]

How did this all arise, if I recall it's one members theory ?

Hello Marcus,

i'm sorry if I confused you.
It's only an theory from me wich isn't prove with hard facts. Ergo it's only a thesis and i don't wanted to put it in the center.

Unfortunatly we will never have facts in cases wich have to do with Juncker and eventually partners because most of the documents wich we would need for reconsdruct such thinks are burned during a bombardment, i think in the end of 1943. I wrote that in a thread in this forum where members diskussed the artictle about the paratroopers badge of the army.

The hard facts in this thread here are that my unmarked EK2 must be an early (pre-LDO) version from Juncker and that Georges is an unmarked later piece like yours (post-LDO). And i've recognized that the secon cross from George is an unmarked "100" because it has the typical 3 in both dates (1813/1939).

My statement of an eventually co-operation between Juncker and W&L should be only casual.

My English refreshs faster that i thought since i started writing here, but in such cases like this, when in becomes complicated it's hard for me and i hope you understand me.

If not please ask. I've much time today.

BTW Marcus: Can you post a picture of the whole "Ordensspange"? I would be pleased because i have not enough good examples for my database. And what can be a better example as a "Spabge" with a Juncker cross.

Regards
Andreas

[MH184]

Hi Andreas,

Your Englsih is excellent and I understand you (my German is terrible), thank you for the informative reply and clarification

I get confused with early and later examples, then the 2 and L/12 variety also then when they are unmarked and the theories of frames from W&L also etc ........... It gets to the point of how will we tell good from bad, for me being a novice on crosses.

I'll get some scans done for you certainly.


Kr

Marcus