ROUNDER modern FAKE!

[Ron Weinand]

Detlev and the forum

I am so glad we have this faith in Detlev that you all consider that if he says so or its in his book, it has to be correct.
Now, with my Juncker Glider Badge that many of you claimed to be a repro is pictured in Detlev's book in the Luftwaffe Glider Badge section means that it is forsure real and I don't have to worry about it any more.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Peter Wiking]

This will only bring more wood to the fire. Detlev reads our forum and know it is a very much debated cross. There will only be victims in the end if this is not done on a serius level.

Detlev! Please tell us why you say as you do on your site. Why is it not genuine WW2 ?

Danke, thanks and cheers.
Peter

[Brian S]

The one obvious problem Dietrich and George and I have had is that the man who has sourced more RKs than anyone else, Detlev, had apparently NOT sourced a Rounder RK from a vet. You can't help but be concerned that over the years he had yet to come across one from a vet or family with unabashed evidence of wartime originality. This we all knew and accepted as a problem. I couldn't begin to guess the number of RKs Detlev sourced from vets but I would guess in the several hundreds not counting show bought and collector bought pieces.

Out of a population of over 8,000 recipients his RKs sourced is probably a high enough statistical probability that if he hasn't found one by now it is a very high probability the Rounder is postwar. Not impossible, but ever more unlikely. This we knew and continue to know.

[robert60446]

...

[Brian S]

Robert, maybe you should have read my comments before warning me away.

Detlev obviously has NEVER seen one from a vet. That speaks volumes to him about originality. Quite simple really.

If you're expecting a lengthy chemical analysis I don't believe you'll get one.

[Brian S]

.

[J G]

Brian,
Dave posted Detlev's position and simply said he felt vindicated. OK, so you disagree, obviously very strongly. What about posting something to the contrary? I know little of the deate so forgive me if you had these questions before.

Do you have a pre-war rounder?
Have you any proof they are pre-war?

On the recent evidence, Dietrich is still on the fence after his FTIR results, Tom Hanson's seem conclusive of the fake theory. Do you have anything productive to add? The best way to support you case is by adding to the weight of evidence.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I apologize if I left the impression of a deafening silence about Detlev' fake of the week - I was at a show the last two days and had a lot of nice discussions and no deafining silence at all

I think Brian sums it up perfectly. Detlev believe (so I guess) that since he has never obtained one from a vet directly that it was not made during the war. We knew that all along and that is nothing new. The probabiliy speaks definenitely against the Rounder.

However, I give you all one thing to to think about. The cross in Detlev's book on page 490. One of a kind so far. If I would have brought that to Detleve he would need to say - on the same basis of reasoning he (seemingly) applies to the Rounder - that this peice is a post war fake. A position some people took here very adamantly exactly for the same reasn. "How can this be real after nobody has seen one after all theses years". Well, it's real and that is that!

Now with the Rounder the chances are a littler worse since there are quite some more than just one cross on the market and that would lead me to belive that chances of finding an 'original owner' should and must be higher.

I stick with what I said so far: I don't know, but I have my opinion. And that is EXACTLY the same thing Detlev experessed. An opinion based on solid but nevertheless circumstantial evidence.

... unless he really knows 'who did it'. And I doubt that.

Dietrich

[J G]

This may a question that's been asked a million times but I can't seem to find an answer so I'll ask it.

Who made "rounders"?

All the manufacturers are documented, all made crosses from dies etc, so why are there no records of a manufacturer? Or is there?

[Kevin V.]

....rounded Juncker's are oké, ....rounders as e.g. shown by Detlev...are ALL copy's..."an other man's opinion".
Pieter.

I AGREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Warfight,

since you have such a strong opinion that you need to shout it out , could you please help me to solve the few puzzles I have:

- why did the 'fakers' etched the beading and why did they use Rhodium?
- why did they make three models (plated, etched, plain)?
- why do we know the source of the other common fakes (Souval, Hungary, Latvia, Floch, ..) but not this one?

Those are exactly the points I'm after. Maybe you can help me. Hey, maybe those come from the stock of a company that thought they were allowed to do it but didn't get the license? Maybe they were really made shortly after the war for whatever reasons? I honestly don't know. Maybe you do?

Dietrich

[Brian S]

...

[J G]

...and all parroted opinions most graciously welcomed.

Brian,
Have a look a my posts #22 and #24. Have you anything to contribute in the way of evidence?

[J G]

Warfight,

since you have such a strong opinion that you need to shout it out , could you please help me to solve the few puzzles I have:

- why did the 'fakers' etched the beading and why did they use Rhodium?
- why did they make three models (plated, etched, plain)?
- why do we know the source of the other common fakes (Souval, Hungary, Latvia, Floch, ..) but not this one?

Those are exactly the points I'm after. Maybe you can help me. Hey, maybe those come from the stock of a company that thought they were allowed to do it but didn't get the license? Maybe they were really made shortly after the war for whatever reasons? I honestly don't know. Maybe you do?

Dietrich

Dietrich,
I could reverse the question to you. My post at #24 refers. Who were the manufacturers, manufacturing RK's without a licence during the war that were actually awarded? I seriously doubt that. Epoxy resins patented in '59, we have proof of that.

If "rounders" are pre '45 there should be absolute proof, just like all other RK's, Juncker, K&Q etc.

It's all about evidence, so let's see it, then we can discuss it. I'm currently in the fake camp, convince me otherwise?

[Brian S]

If I HAD proof wouldn't this all be mute?

Do I have a wartime Rounder? Don't we ALL have wartime Rounders.