Infared spec

[tom hansen]

Back to the rounder-


Let me ask a couple questions before this testing.


1. If modern compounds are found on the paint that were only used post 1945, will that convince people that these are post war fakes?


2. If they are post war fakes, will rounder provenance stories be accepted as not possible?

3. Will everyone be willing to go back in a calm manner and look at the previous data and examine how we can avoid such conclusions in the future?

[bratwurstdimsum]

That begs only one question from me Tom,

"Shall we say that all Rounders are painted using post war paint or only the one(s) you are testing?"

If the answer is no then that kinda defeats your first point... what do you reckon?

Jeff

[tom hansen]

Jeff-


Thanks. Yes, that is what I am getting at. If modern compounds are found on this rounder, which is a fine rounder example, there will be two arguments, both of which would border on delusional-

1. It is a repaint

2. It is a fake/post war rounder and the dies survived the war


Should those arguments/explanations be brought forward as an explanation and the data completely denied, I think we could officially place the rounder camp in the lunatic fringe. One could make the same arguments about Souval and Latvian pieces, although not with a straight face. I will post this piece when it arrives so there is no question. I would encourage anyone else who owns a rounder to get it tested through IR spec and contribute their information. However, I would not hold my breath on that request. These same people who make these arguments, and I am dead sure there will be at least one , are individuals who refuse to test their pieces in any regard, as I feel they already know the answer.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Your detractors may probably say: "not the most objective method; analysing your own rounder that you paid thousands for" but I like it.

Jeff,

just as a reminder: I did test my Rounder under SEM and published the results. Then I did send it to Tom who tested it again and published the results.
It is not true that at least myself is not looking to find out the truth. And I know this applies to other, too.
So I don't find it very fair to ridicule all previous efforts just because - and again I'm talking only for me - I don't want to contribute money for this particular endevour. I've spend money already for testing the Rounder, the Grand Cross and some EK1's.
It is in my opinion not fair to construe any 'non-contribution' in financial means as a refusal to find out whatever there might be.

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

Dietrich-


I am not ridiculing you. You have done extensive testing on your rounder and have made a strong effort to find out the truth here. You have your opinons- I have mine. However, I think you have made quite an effort with your piece.

I have not seen anyone else submit their pieces for testing. Perhaps when this IR spec data comes in, others will want to do so. I will post the address and phone number of the testing lab for anyone interested.


Let me repeat these questions-

1. If modern compounds are found on the paint that were only used post 1945, will that convince people that these are post war fakes?


2. If they are post war fakes, will rounder provenance stories be accepted as not possible?

3. Will everyone be willing to go back in a calm manner and look at the previous data and examine how we can avoid such conclusions in the future?<!-- / message -->

[George Stimson]

Whatever the results of this testing are I hope that everyone can accept them in a calm manner. Remember, this hobby is about history and facts. It's not about personalities, cliques, and "I was right and you were wrong!".

[Dietrich Maerz]

If modern compounds are found on this rounder, which is a fine rounder example, there will be two arguments, both of which would border on delusional-

1. It is a repaint

2. It is a fake/post war rounder and the dies survived the war

How about this one?

- test show no silver plating? I remind you of your earlier statement that you said most likely all are plated and if not so than that is a good sign?

- test show no modern paint? Will we hear the always popular " Oh well, they used the old can that was standing around?" The paint version of the oh so popular "bin theory"!

Tom, it goes both ways and I think we should not discuss any possible arguments upfront. Let the data speak for itself. So, let's wait for the data!

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Yes, can't we at least wait for the data? This premature concluding, name-calling, and scenario fantasizing is, well, premature.

[Marc Garlasco]

This is a huge step forward. FTIR is an amazing test. BUT, we need to test multiple crosses. Without a critical mass any claims lack credibility.
Marc

[tom hansen]

Nope-


I still think that many will prove to be plated- maybe this one as well.


If there is old paint and the piece is not plated, I will start to believe in the rounder. Let us wait and see what the information shows. I will not contend that a modern piece was painted with old paint. That COULD happen, but I think that explanation would be bs, just as I think the presence of modern paint being a repaint would be a bs explanation. I know that occurs in other areas, but I do not think that any faker in medals has seen the need for that so far.

George- If this is modern, I will not rub it any anyone's face. I think that one SHOULD ask about anyone purporting fake provenance, however. This information, if found out to be so, is not only dishonest, but is damaging to collectors, as some will consider this to be positive information that may lead to a decision to purchase. I think that such practices should be exposed, otherwise they will occur again.

[Dave Kane]

That's fine! I didn't send one! I just said "check your e-mail" as a courtesy call ....

Why should I let the whole community know that I was sending you an e-mail? Or a PM? To tell everybody that I have conversations with you behind the public forum? Why would I do that???

Dietrich

A bit edgy are you Dietrich? There's no need for this sort of thing and you know it.

Tom will go for hours and not check his Email......

How else would you discuss BANKING information and transfer of substantial
funds...on a public Forum, I think not!!

My post was directly relative to this thread ( a public request for Tom's banking information surely would have been crass ) as I had publicaly offered to partner with him on the purchase. However, your post was just plain catty and uncalled for

Moderate rather than editorialize!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

I'm not edgy . Not at all!

If Tom is out and cannot check his e-mail why not send him a PM to check his e-mail? And if he's on a computer to check his PM or the forum posting, can he not also check his e-mail?
I just think - in good spirit and humor - there was a reason to invent the PM system - that was the message I tried to get across!

Your post, my post (meant as a joke ) and your answer as well as this post are completely unnecessary and should not be part of this thread. So herewith I moderated myself!

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Thanks! However, I'd still be uncomfortable utilizing the PM system for that sort of discussion/transaction.


I am gratified your post was in jest

[tom hansen]

This is a huge step forward. FTIR is an amazing test. BUT, we need to test multiple crosses. Without a critical mass any claims lack credibility.
Marc

That would be great. But who, beyond Dietrich, has shown any interest at all in contributing some information regarding this piece? I am afraid that one, perhaps two, will have to do, as I do not think we will see anyone else sending their pieces for IR spec testing.


I think we can accept that the piece being tested IS A GENUINE ROUNDER, so there will be little wiggle room to debate results based on that issue.

[bratwurstdimsum]

Well, I think if it does not solve the whole issue, the presence of a test that confirms a medal's authenticity* will serve a similar purpose as a detlev niemann COA.

Certainly as everyone is talking about die flaws now when discussing S&L's, people will be willing to pay more for a rounder when accompanied with such a test result (hopefully along with a drop in price in the scan fees $$$ )






*Provided every accepts the test!