RK Urkunde as promised!

[Ron Weinand]

Here is my RK Large Document or Urkunde for Generalmajor Karl Kriebel as I promised to photograph about 6 monts ago. I have Kriebel's shoulder boards with three pips, his helmet named and a postcard with his signature.
His brother was the military leader of the 1923 Putsch and he served on the military panel to investigate the Army's involvement in the July 1944 attempt on Hitler's life. He was also a close personal friend of Hitler's. This is an orignal Hitler signature and Kriebel was one of the first 100 as 7 were awarded on this date to include Sepp Dietrick.

Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Michael Everett]

awesome

Dear Ron,

Great piece. What are your thoughts regarding the price of the early versions (Darker ink no 'Den' on the date line) compared to the later ones?

MIKE

[Ron Weinand]

Mike, we missed you at the MAX.

As far as these documents are concerned, someone needs to do a study on how many were given out, how many were hand signed, which ones were presented and which ones were not given to the winner.
Also, Bob Thompson has done extensive work on these and the crosses in Germany and he needs to finish his book. I know he has a lot of information and when these Grosse Urkunde ceased to be given. There appears to be no reason as to who was recalled from the front for presentation and who were not.
I think it was a matter of who and when they were available.
I have been trying to find photos of Kriebel's presentation on July 4, 1940. There were seven awarded on that day to include Sepp Dietrich, so I would think someone was photographing the award presentation.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Ron Weinand]

BTW: This document was found in a trash can in St. Louis in the 1970s and brought to school for a teacher who was interested in Third Reich items. WHAT A RESCUE!!! The veteran's kids or some one used the back inside cover to do math problems in pencil. Luckily, it was easily removed, but the impressions are still present. The parchment pages are in super condition, but do have some light darkening along the edge. My gold night fighter bar and some cash went on this item. I had been looking for one of these for years. I am glad I was the lucky one, but hated to give up my bar.

Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Michael Everett]

Info

Dear Ron,

Yes, I hope Bob get's a chance to publish his work. I would surmise that the 'early' ones are worth about 4-6K more then the later ones. This is strictly based on what I see them for in Germany.

See you at the SOS,


MIKE

[Ron Weinand]

Signatures

Mike, what I would really like to know is when the collectors are going to learn that Hitler signed ones are much more rare than the auto pen signature. When did Hitler stop signing them and how many did he actually sign himself.
You probably know the old story about the occupying forces finding a stack of these unsigned in the cellar of the Chancellory with the man who signed for Hitler still at work signing his name on documents and orders with Hitler's name.
It is hard not to believe this as I have talked with veterans who have had unsigned ones from the Chancellory, but have yet to meet anyone who met the man who signed for Hitler.
Also, does the color of the ink mean anything special or is that a method to tell if it is an auto pen signature or his real signature.
A lot to learn yet.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Michael Everett]

Agree

Dear Ron,

Totally agree with your way of thinking. There are many dynamics which determine the value of these documents. The collecting community by large does not recognize the various aspects which determine their actual worth. I have two documents in my collection; an early version presented to a STUKA pilot with facsimile sig. and a later style version presented to combat engineer with original sig. I hope Bob will eventually shed some light on the subject.

MIKE

[Pieter Verbruggen]

....This a very nice early one Ron , congratulations from an addicted person for these things...
Pieter.

[Michael Everett]

The Best

....This a very nice early one Ron , congratulations from an addicted person for these things...
Pieter.

Pieter,

I thought you would be at Gunze? Any chance you could post your recent purchase?

MIKE

[Jack]

price

Hello all,
what would the price of an early dated say 40/41 be compared to 39 or 42 dated or does it depend on a known name or combat soldier?
Cheers Jack

[Chris Boonzaier]

It is hard not to believe this as I have talked with veterans who have had unsigned ones from the Chancellory, but have yet to meet anyone who met the man who signed for Hitler.

Mertens, who hade RK and oakleaves (if I remember correctly) was the one who met the man..(And was given his docs by him!!) it is documented in Geisslers book.

No better witness than that.

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Pieter,

I thought you would be at Gunze? Any chance you could post your recent purchase?

MIKE

...I will show it to you when you visit me...

Pieter.

PS I was at the gunzenhausen show for two days...didn't saw you....

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Mertens, who hade RK and oakleaves (if I remember correctly) was the one who met the man..(And was given his docs by him!!) it is documented in Geisslers book.

No better witness than that.

...This is a witness oké...BUT...the man who was signing the documents was he hand signing or facsimil...THAT'S the question we cannot answer and which is very importand.
Pieter.

[Chris Boonzaier]

...This is a witness oké...BUT...the man who was signing the documents was he hand signing or facsimil...THAT'S the question we cannot answer and which is very importand.
Pieter.

Quite simple..... Merten got his docs from the guy, who had put the signature on. Mertens docs have been in books. if they have faks signatures... the question is answered.

[Ron Weinand]

I don't think you would call those signed by the gentleman fakes. He was assigned to do the work by Hitler and would have been period signed. I believe the story to be correct and that was the method for ones made and presented after some time. The question is: When were the Hitler signed ones stopped?

Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria