Rounder on e-bay

[eindecker2]

OK - I have stayed away from this type of argument but I will put my two cents in. If I had the funds I would love to contribute to buying this RK. I agree that it should be taken appart and anilyzed. Two trains of thought here - if it is wartime - ol Tom just ate crow and everyone with a rounder now has an RK that will jump in value and historical significance - so be happy. If its not, then everyone can post their rounder on the Bazzar e-stand. This forum is about truth - and as for protecting history - think of how the Shroud of Turin has been tested - only one of those - but samples of cloth were taken and destroyed in testing the aouthenticity and period of the item, so in pursuit of the truth sometimes there is a price to pay - one shroud of turin - hundreds - perhaps thousands of rounders out there...if its real or fake and damaged to a hundred pieces - can I have the left overs as a monument(al) parperweight to 'truth'???

[Dietrich Maerz]

[QUOTE=tom hansen
So- Would everyone agree that the piece posted above is an original rounder?[/QUOTE]

I don't know about everyone - but I certainly do agree. This is what we call a genuine Rounder.

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

Thanks Dietrich-

I am interested to get the piece to be able to test it. Again, I will report any results faithfully and let everyone interpret them as they wish. I have my opinions, but do not have a sinister agenda. I am looking forward to results one way or another.

I see that germ-militaria, a well known faker, put a bid in and then retracted it.

[tom hansen]

I was contacted via ebay by a "good samaritan" who advised me not to bid on the piece because it was a latvian fake. It must have been someone modestly versed in RKs to even what the heck a latvian fake was .

[George Stimson]

Tom

What do you think the "warning" means?

[tom hansen]

I don't know, George. I guess if the seller did not have all the good feed back from different bidders, I would suspect a bait and switch scam. Perhaps it is just someone who recognized that the cross was not a conventional RK maker and assumed it was a latvian fake. Kind of like the tip offs we have given to the buyers of the militaria-webside guy who peddles all the fakes.

[Harry]

I would nearly bet that the seller is a forum member here . I mean, anyone who has any serious enough interest in RKs to have reference books and all, and with the good sense to off-load a rounder, must have checked-in here as some stage!

[tom hansen]

Thanks Harry-


You are probably right. I think the IR spec information will corroborate and exhonerate the SEM data. I feel pretty confident that the binder compound will be a a siliconated alkyd binder. These are modern binders allow that nice sheen that is seen on the rounders, as seen on this ebay rounder. These compounds were first tested at Dow Chemical in the late 1940s and achieved commercial use in the 60s as a chemical coating. Note that in the SEM data there were large Si peaks. A siliconated alkyd will be C, O, and Si. The presence of the individual elements was said to mean nothing, however, I think the presence of a compound used in paints post war will seal the deal. I think this will vindicate the SEM appearance of the paint as well- a uniform finely granular appearance compared to the amorphous, irregular appearance of the pigments in the period pieces.

[Dick Pumphrey]

Gentlemen,
I think that it is nothing short of criminal to destroy this RK. Not only is it a waste of hard earned money it will deny some collector a chance to own a Knights Cross. If you don't like "rounders" don't buy one that's pretty simple.
Just my two bits worth.
Regards,
Dick

[George Stimson]

I don't really have a problem with this approach. I mean, once an award has lost its provenance back to the awardee it's pretty much lost its soul anyway.

[Brian S]

Thanks Harry-


You are probably right. I think the IR spec information will corroborate and exhonerate the SEM data. I feel pretty confident that the binder compound will be a a siliconated alkyd binder. These are modern binders allow that nice sheen that is seen on the rounders, as seen on this ebay rounder. These compounds were first tested at Dow Chemical in the late 1940s and achieved commercial use in the 60s as a chemical coating. Note that in the SEM data there were large Si peaks. A siliconated alkyd will be C, O, and Si. The presence of the individual elements was said to mean nothing, however, I think the presence of a compound used in paints post war will seal the deal. I think this will vindicate the SEM appearance of the paint as well- a uniform finely granular appearance compared to the amorphous, irregular appearance of the pigments in the period pieces.

Thanks for warning us ahead of time of your conclusions which are again based on faulty knowledge of the history of binders.

[Brian S]

Never let facts get in the way of a good conclusion.

[tom hansen]

Gentlemen,
I think that it is nothing short of criminal to destroy this RK. Not only is it a waste of hard earned money it will deny some collector a chance to own a Knights Cross. If you don't like "rounders" don't buy one that's pretty simple.
Just my two bits worth.
Regards,
Dick

Dick-

Relax. I am so completely sure that Rounders are fake that I would take open wagers from anyone on the forum to the contrary. The IR spec stuff is minimally invasive and will not sacrfice the cross. Tell you what. When I show it has silicone alkyd paint (modern), I will trade you a DKiG even up and you can enjoy it. That is a smoking deal for any believer.


So there you have it. Trade me even up an original DKiG of any maker for the rounder and I will call it even. That would be a great deal for anyone- a $3500- $4000 RK for a $1500-$2000 DKiG. Let's call it a deal before this testing so we can square it.

[Bob Hritz]

I think we should let Tom do his research and I believe he will give the actual and honest results. Every researcher has a personal belief in the outcome of his work, and even when the results are not along the line the researcher initially believes, all that is required is honesty. I have no reason to doubt Tom's accurate posting of the analysis.

Now, there may be a lot of work to be done, unless the actual contents are nothing used prior to May 8, 1945. I am sure that once the results are in, the real research into paint and paint binder analysis will follow.

Good luck, Tom.

Brian, Let's give Tom the opportunity to do the analysis. I don't believe that Tom will report anything but factual findings and we can go from there.

Every step is bringing us closer to the truth.

Bob Hritz

[Dave Kane]

I offered Tom help w/ the purchase and encourage the tests....I think that there's only a handful of folks who 'believe' these to be post war and only 3 of (us) members who are willing to say it outright.... two in the US and 1 in Europe!!


That said I'm a little disappointed with the lack of offers to help Tom with this in a $$ fashion......All will benefit, even those who purchased these from dealers offering a lifetime guarante of originality.....that is if there is one