S&L 935/4

[tom hansen]

Perhaps Brian you could post the dent row on your cross and compare it to the post that Dietrich has on post #143. If there is not enough information at this time, further data points would be helpful.

[Brian S]

Yes, Tom, you are completely and exactly correct. More data points would indeed help. But when you don't feel confident in the motive of the loudest person looking at the photo, you don't post. That's my opinion and some from emails I'm getting. And when I said there was a problem before, that's it. I would be thrilled to see data points but someone else is going to have to provide them.

[Brian S]

This is a good start Dietrich. You need more.

[Brian S]

Since you have that microscope you should be able to measure the depth of crevice to determine wear/polishing of the ridge. This at least for me would tell me it's more than palmistry.

[Harry]

I don't think a cross, wheather S&L, K&Q etc should be doubted just because it is cased and in mint condition. There are many late war crosses out there in such condition, including Lazy-2s, 935-4s etc.......here is a 800 S&L, supposedly mid-to-late war, boxed and mint........

[Harry]

the mark.......

[Harry]

Now......does this 800 have a slight rectangular imprint around it??? Look at the shape the painted-on frosting has adopted as it pooled around the numerals....Just stirring up possibilities

[Brian S]

You are absolutely correct Harry and I won't doubt a cross because it's mint or there are five mint examples. And I do see what you are saying about the imprint. I appreciate your level comments.

[Bob Hritz]

If anyone has a 800 silver mark punch to show, you will see the numbers sit on a flat base. If the punch is struck too hard, the rectangular base of the 800 will leave it's impression. This is not the 'box' which is a part of an incuse releif punch.

Bob Hritz

[Dave Kane]

Hi Harry,

The description on relicsofthereich site doesn't say anything about the loop, so we still don't know what the Silvercontentnumber is.

Maybe Dave can answer this question and the other questions I asked in post 147.

Greetings, Thomas

Sorry for the delay Thomas! Of 8 loops attributed to S&L by finish and font none show a purposly flattened inner area.
All are marked '800'

[Brian S]

If anyone has a 800 silver mark punch to show, you will see the numbers sit on a flat base. If the punch is struck too hard, the rectangular base of the 800 will leave it's impression. This is not the 'box' which is a part of an incuse releif punch.

Bob Hritz

Absolutely Bob. And if you look at my cross you will see it is not an incuse 800 as erroneously stated by Dave, it is as you say and Harry has demonstrated, a clear double strike that went down to the 'base' of the stamp.

And so there is no confusion on Harry's example, it too, is NOT incuse.

[Bob Hritz]

Brian,

I saw that as soon as I viewed the images of your cross and Harry's. This is not uncommon on many marks found on 3rd Reich medals and badges. It is visiable on qualification and assault badges as well as mis-stamps where the marking tool is not held perfectly straight. I have a double struck Juncker pilot and a Juncker pilot with the mark upside down.

We have to remember that these were done by hand and, in all reality, the perfection of a maker mark or silver mark was not of paramount importance.

I cannot imagine a group of German soldiers comparing their awards for which has the best hallmark. I also cannot recall the makers of my uniform buttons, insignia, etc, and that was not 60 years ago. I just didn't care.

Bob Hritz

[Brian S]

Thanks Bob!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich, you've seen one 935/4, a mint one, and this single observation creates a law for a timeline?

Brian,

I've seen more than one 935/4 and I did not create a law for a timeline, nor any other law for that purpose.

What I did is take the appearance of several dent rows of several crosses, which are clearly apart in time (there's no doubt that a 935-4 came before the 57 and that the heavily flawed came after the 57...) and did show the deterioration of the dent row over this undisputable time line. That's all.

Now, you and me and hundreds of other people can argue till the cows come home whether a 9 dents dent row is earlier or later than a fairly pristine one with 11 dents. Kind like the bin theory. Everything is possible.

Fact is that at this point in time the 935-4 is the last S&L cross with at least some kind of pre-45 provenance. For me it is therefore also the first B-Type and therefore the benchmark for the dent row. The origin so to speak.

I will measure other crosses on that benchmark. But it's for sure no law. What other people do or make out of this is a different issue.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Dietrich, you and I are more in agreement than you can imagine. My huge contention is seeing a cross that is not pristine and having a member call it a postwar fake. Therefore, until you have a reasonable group of examples to timeline the pieces, you are providing gasoline for members who wish to throw it on the fire. And, gee whiz, golly, if you haven't figured this out yet, I don't like being anyone's patsy.