Rounder results.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Apart from the fact that Chuck Stubben tested his Rounder and it's silver, Tom says:

"On Dietrich's rounder, there were high Cu peaks on the frame suggesting, in addition to the rippled appearance on the beading, that the piece may be in fact silver plated with a Cu peak coming through the plate. Further investigation of that piece would prove this one way or another, as there would have to be testing by other means over an area where there is a defect."

So, since ther is no defect he would accept, there is only one way out:

[Dietrich Maerz]

Now I hope we are all in agreement that silver plating is not 0.5 - 1.0 mm thick! Just to make sure everybody understands how thin plating is, here's another picture of Tony's silver plated Rounder. I think everybody can see the thiness of the plating, hopefully.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I also hope that there is an understanding that the possibly plated material has a different visual appearance then silver, i.e. yellowish or such. To make that point clear, here another picture of the plated Rounder.

[Jeff Nichols]

d. Why has there not been mention of penalties or sanctions for this maker, as Gordon mentions for schickle, if the company engaged in such a process? Surely the PK/LDO would have discovered this and there would have been some penalties for such a practice.

Tom, how could you be so sure the PK/LDO would have discovered this? I think just the opposite. I doubt they were standing there testing the silver content at award ceremonies, especially as the war dragged out. In fact I'll bet tons of discrepencies in all areas got by the authorities back then. We all think that everything they did had to be perfect,they are human to and had bad days to,right?...Cheers...Jeff

[Dietrich Maerz]

Notwithstanding the fact that marking a silver plated piece with "800", which is fraudulent, we do not know whether it was intentional or unintentional. Or whether it was a 'one time slip' or, as Tom has alleged several times the last weeks, that ALL Rounders are silver plated and incorrectly marked.

And Jeff, I fully agree: Neither would somebody at the PKZ do ann acid test nor would a General or whoever take out his dental cleaning tool. It was had enough to see with Tony's cross and only the scope revealed it - even with the heavy wear present. With a brand new cross you could not tell at all. No way!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Now, everybody can believe whatever he wants, but the ugly dental tool went pretty deep and I did apply some force. First scraping and then trying to 'make a hole', which I did to a certain extend - I would say approx 0.5 mm.

[Dietrich Maerz]

There is no way that my Rounder - the wavy one - is plated. Or, if it's plated, it's silver over silver. Or the plating is more then 0.5 mm thick which would be a record and would make this cross very, very valuable beacause of this technical feat.

I hope - togheter with the results from Chuck - this end's the allegation of all Rounder being plated once and for all.

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

I also would like to add my 2 cents regarding the microscopic pictures, which Tony 'critisized' rightly so. But it's not the pictures that take away from the hobby - just the contrary I think! It's the wrong or hasty interpretations.

A perfect example is the picture in post #10. It's the 9-12 o'clock knee of a type A S&L. I asked Tom during the work on my article what the white stripes are one can see between the beading. He said "Schmutz". But it's not Schmutz, it is the typical knee flaw of the A-Type. The key to solving the mistery was there, the interpretation was wrong. Partially because of the clinical appearance of the pictures (sharp and B&W), partially because of lack of knowledge of processes.

And this will happen again and again. I don't know what the 'waves' are, I only know now that they are not a sign of plating.

There is a lot to learn from microscopic pictures, but it is wrong to make this type of resolution (50X plus) a measurement of quality or LDO standards. I always said that!

Dietrich

[vonStubben]

There is no way that my Rounder - the wavy one - is plated. Or, if it's plated, it's silver over silver. Or the plating is more then 0.5 mm thick which would be a record and would make this cross very, very valuable beacause of this technical feat.

I hope - togheter with the results from Chuck - this end's the allegation of all Rounder being plated once and for all.

Dietrich

AMEN brother! And Dietrich, that took some guts scarring your cross that way.

Chuck

P.S. Also, here is a far out thought (especially for me), but pertinent to the many suppositions already voiced regarding the Rounder. Perhaps one of the reasons we don't know who this maker is, etc., IS because they were caught marking silver plated crosses as 800 silver and were sanctioned for doing so, like loosing their contract to produce the Knights Cross etc.............who knows? But actually, I believe it to have been an oversight or mistake.

[tom hansen]

Great! I do not mind being wrong at all and admit that I was wrong there . That is great information that can help further in the study of this piece.

PS- I checked the schickle on the side of the cross where the halves meet also. It is barely noticeable.

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich...what 'color' did you end up with?

TO TEST<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P> </O:P>

File a notch in test piece, apply a drop of solution #1 - watch for color reaction.<O:P> </O:P>

BRASS--Dark brown<O:P> </O:P>

COPPER--Brown<O:P> </O:P>

GOLD--None<O:P> </O:P>

NICKEL--Blue<O:P> </O:P>

LEAD--Yellow<O:P> </O:P>

TIN--Yellow<O:P> </O:P><O:P></O:P>

SILVER (PURE)--Bright red SILVER (.925)--Dark red<O:P> </O:P>

SILVER (.800)--Brown SILVER (.500)--Green<O:P> </O:P>

PALLADIUM--None<O:P> </O:P><O:P></O:P>

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

I did not apply any solvent or such. I made a hole and peaked inside. It's silver pure.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

You are a braver man than I Dietrich!!!


Just as coincidence would have it, I had occasion today to buy some very nice silver gifts ( we are in Mexico ) and each piece was 'tested' prior to the negotiations.

Each test involved a scarring and a drop of acid on the mark....COLOR was then the indicator of quality. Interestingly, the 'scar' was then buffed smooth and the piece appeared good as new.

Additionally, there indeed are degrees of 'plating' and quality/purity tests for this too. The base metal most commonly used was said to be copper.

[George Stimson]

Dave! Don't tell me you fell for that old Tijuana "silver test" scam??!!!








(Just kidding.... )

[Dave Kane]

George, my Dad owned the "Blarney Stone" bar and rest. at 39th and 6th in NYC.....I saw every 'scam' there was! However, on my 1st. trip to Tijuana (almost 30 years ago) I was amazed......those guys almost 'believe' their own lies and they are good