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    Rounder results.

    Gentlemen,

    I have the results of the tests on my Rounder KC.

    Dietrich was correct in his observation that my Rounder is a silver plated example.

    The base metal under the plating, while looking like brass, is more likely Tombak. This is suggested by the red/brown tone visable under magnification and correlated by the jewler that did the testing. His opinion from the tests suggest a higher percentage of copper in the alloy than the run of the mill plain yellow brass or the better quality high brass. The jeweler likened the composition closer to a tombak or bronze which has the highest copper percentage at about 80-85% For yellow brass the copper percentage is in the 60% range while high brass will be in the 70% range.

    This high percentage of copper in the frame alloy may have some bearing on the smoothness of the beading. As it was explained to me, when metal is cold formed in a die or a press it will show the movement of the metal under magnification and in softer metals without the aid of magnification.

    The example given and easily understood is the American Silver Dollar coin of the past as well as new coins today. When newly minted or struck, the fields of the coin will many times exhibit a frosting even though the dies are polished very smooth. This phenomenon earned the newly struck dollars the name cartwheels because of how these surfaces reflected light. I will tie this info together for us a bit later as I believe it will answer some questions posed earlier in another thread.

    The type of metal being struck, the alloys it is composed of and the relative softness or hardness of the planchet, are important factors having a bearing on the finished stamping as it comes from the die.

    The harder the metal the more resistant it is to movement. Some metals can be resistant to movement even when in a heated state. The more resistant the metal is to movement, in our case cold stamping or pressing, the less finished the surface will be. Keep in mind that all this is readily apparent under higher magnification and not necessarily so to the naked eye. By less finshed, I mean that the surface of the displaced metal has not flowed as smoothly together into the new shape forced by the die as would a softer piece of metal with better flow charactoristics, hence a more rippled surface under magnification. Very high magnification is a great tool if properly understood and applied. It is doubtful that the die cutter that created the master die for the KC frame used any magnification greater than 10x if even that strong. Magnifying to the power of several hundreds is amusing but not relevant to methods used at the time of creating the original dies. A look at the general range of hand held magnification that jewelers use is a pretty good indicator of the resolution required to produce these dies.

    Shifting gears a bit here to address the 800 silver mark on an item that is proven to be plated over a basemetal. The jeweler that I had test the KC is and old timer from Europe. He was very helpful in explaining that subterfuge in the jewelry trade was not unheard of and offen quite common at that time. He explained that Europe was just beginning to awake from the stupifying paralysis of the Great Depression that had affected everyone's ability to earn a sustainable living. You turned a dollar, a mark or a schilling where ever you could. In the jewelry and related trades more so with the lesser precious metals such as silver as opposed to the the noble ones of gold and platinum that few could afford. As he opined quite astutely, "One of the frailties of man when it comes to making a harmless profit." What you don't see or don't know won't hurt you. This man learned his craft in Germany before emmigrating to the US before the war, as he is Jewish.

    Okay now, so much for the long prelude. Let's see if I can pull this all together coherently.

    My Rounder KC frame was struck from tombak and plated with silver. The 800 mark may have been applied as a subterfuge to mask the lesser materials. Being a wartimeera manufactured item this could smack of petty profiteering by substituing one material for the type specified in the regulations. This is not an unknown phenomenon as witnessed by the many brass cored EKI examples in collectors hands. A hold over of the Depression mentality? Who knows.

    Another avenue of thought to persue is that my Rounder was indeed struck from tombak and silver plated intentionally. Perhaps as an early piece for application to the medals and orders governing body as an example of this yet unidentified company's ability to produce the KC for the government. The later frosted silver examples may indeed prove that the company did secure a small government contract or the right to produce for commercial sale small quantities before LDO intervention. Only time and further research will tell.

    One example will not make or break the search for the truth regarding Rounder KCs.

    That is my report and my hopefully thought provoking summation. I know that some the doubters will continue to scoff and some of us will continue to look for the truth where ever the facts may lead us regarding the Rounder KCs.

    Thanks for reading it thru.

    Tony
    An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

    "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

    #2
    That's very interesting, Tony. Thank you for taking the time and effort to have your RK examined, and thank you for sharing the results of your efforts with us!
    George

    Comment


      #3
      "By less finshed, I mean that the surface of the displaced metal has not flowed as smoothly together into the new shape forced by the die as would a softer piece of metal with better flow charactoristics, hence a more rippled surface under magnification."


      Tony, do you think that these two photos are an indication of what you are describing here? A different base metal?
      Attached Files

      Comment


        #4
        more magnified
        Attached Files

        Comment


          #5
          ridges seen on the rounder
          Attached Files

          Comment


            #6
            Tom,

            The 25x magnification picture seems to show wear patterns on the tops of the ribs. Without further knowledge or experience of what I'm looking at I would say that at the very minimum this picture shows wear to the high points of the frosting.

            As for the photo taken at 100x I wouldn't be certain if it is the basemetal showing the rippled surface or an applied frosted finish.

            This high magnification is a relatively new approach that has been presented on the forum as a viable tool. How useful this tool is in our study of KCs may be a bit beyond my total grasp at this time.

            Not to sound flippant or disrespectful, but these super close ups of KC surfaces somehow detracts from the appreciation of the whole. And may be distracting us from looking in the direction we should be. Sort of like looking at a beautiful woman's southernly assets and then magnifying it to such a degree that we are actual looking at the surface of her colon. That may work for the medically or very scientifically inclined but the particular beauty and wonderment of that much clarity is generally lost on a simple collector like myself. About as delightful as looking at a sidewalk.

            Tony
            An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

            "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

            Comment


              #7
              You're welcome George.

              Tony
              An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

              "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

              Comment


                #8
                "Not to sound flippant or disrespectful, but these super close ups of KC surfaces somehow detracts from the appreciation of the whole. And may be distracting us from looking in the direction we should be. Sort of like looking at a beautiful woman's southernly assets and then magnifying it to such a degree that we are actual looking at the surface of her colon. That may work for the medically or very scientifically inclined but the particular beauty and wonderment of that much clarity is generally lost on a simple collector like myself. About as delightful as looking at a sidewalk."



                I agree completely that they are not aesthetically pleasing. However, there is alot of information to be learned from the super magnified images. Here is what has been gleaned from these photos and the others below. The highly detailed SEM photos are a tool to help understand and identify differences in pieces which have not been previously identified. After identification of differences, one can then explore the possible explanations for these variances. Without such a tool, we would never know that there were such marked differences. Regarding the truth, I think we are very close to the truth for this piece and Tony's piece is a very key item in that investigation.

                1. The rippled effect seen on both the rounder and the schickle has been felt to be an indication of plating over a base metal. On the schickle, as well as Tony's rounder, this has been confirmed. On Dietrich's rounder, there were high Cu peaks on the frame suggesting, in addition to the rippled appearance on the beading, that the piece may be in fact silver plated with a Cu peak coming through the plate. Further investigation of that piece would prove this one way or another, as there would have to be testing by other means over an area where there is a defect.

                Rounder RK frame
                Elmt Spect. Element Atomic
                Ni K ED 0.07* 0.11
                Cu K ED 10.38 15.93
                Zn K ED -0.15* -0.22
                Rh L ED 0.58* 0.55
                Ag L ED 87.66 79.20
                Total 100.00 100.00

                Junker 800 RK beading
                Elmt Spect. Element Atomic
                S K ED 0.43 1.39
                Ni K ED 0.24* 0.42
                Cu K ED 4.12 6.70
                Zn K ED 0.58* 0.91
                Rh L ED 0.33* 0.34
                Ag L ED 94.30 90.25
                Total 100.00 100.00


                2. Despite equal magnification of other makers, there is no such effect seen on S&L, K&Q, 3/4 ring, and juncker. I agree that these pieces were not meant to be observed in wear under a microscope. However, the other makers seem to show a very clean, non rippled beading.

                3. Perhaps this appearance can be used as a tool to identify plated pieces if there is further evaluation of pieces with this effect. If the "rippled" appearance correlates well with plated pieces, this can be used as a tool to visually identify pieces with this process. This would require several more pieces and corroboration of the piece being plated by other testing means. So far, it appears as though both the schickle RK and Tony's pieces seem to confirm this, but more data would be required to make this a useful tool.

                4. Lastly, if we are to assume the presence of an 800 stamp on a silver plated piece was an effort to decieve the PK, then this would be an effort or policy by the shop or plant. No individual worker would undertake this, as there would be no profit incentive for the individual worker- they are presumably on a salary. There would be a disincentive for a worker to mistakenly stamp a piece and jeopardize the firms liscence- being fired. Therefore, if this was an effort to by a RK maker to make a greater profit by decieving the PK or LDO, it begs some questions, as this would be a practice not isolated to one piece (assuming that there would be additonal profit, one piece would not make it worth it at all. It would have to be alot of pieces)-

                a. where are the other plated pieces from this maker?

                b. why did other RK makers not do this? The nuesilber and plated pieces from other makers are not stamped 800.

                c. Is there actually any substantial cost difference that would provide a realistic incentive to do so? Others, regarding the recovery of silver sheet from bombed plants by workers, have suggested that the stuff is not that pricey to make that effort worth while.

                d. Why has there not been mention of penalties or sanctions for this maker, as Gordon mentions for schickle, if the company engaged in such a process? Surely the PK/LDO would have discovered this and there would have been some penalties for such a practice.
                Last edited by tom hansen; 08-27-2005, 09:20 AM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  another
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by tom hansen; 08-27-2005, 08:14 AM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    a third
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by tom hansen; 08-27-2005, 08:09 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      close-up
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                        #12
                        another RK
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Relative depth and sharpness of beading of the rounder to another RK. The rounder is to the left.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            another RK comparison of beading depth and sharpness of strike

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Since Tom is always refering to my Rounder, the only one he has seen so far, here a current pictures of the 'waves.

                              Dietrich
                              Attached Files
                              B&D PUBLISHING
                              Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                              Comment

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