HOW to determine pre/post S&L!

[Dave Kane]

Generally, how do you determine post or war time crosses?

I look at finish quality among other things....

[Peter Wiking]

Here is a 1939 cross sold as original. My early 1957 RK are of better quality than this. Should they really look like this ?

Cheers.
Peter

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

if you just look at the finishing quality, the discovery about the A- and B-Type is dicounted and the whole discusssion about dies and/or repairs was in vain, for you at least.

All A-Types are pre-45!

Some B-Types are pre-45!

And here is the list of B-Types that are identified today (I guess not complete)

935-4
800-4
800
incuse 800
935
unmarked, unmagnetic
...

The difficulty starts with the fact that no 935-4 nor 800-4 have provenance so far.
The unfinished ring and the sloppy white wash on the cross Peter showed is for sure not a good sign.
The silvery finish and the heavy laquer on later unmarked, unmagnetic crosses is not a good sign and is in such a stark contrast to the quality of the early 800 A-Types and even 935-4 that it just cannot be pre-45.

I always wondered about the multiple markings, 800, incuse 800, 935. Why not just stay with 935-4 and 800-4 like Juncker for example? Not putting the "4" on is like hiding the manufacturer, especially with a B-Type that came to the market after the mandatory "marking order" from the PKZ in mid 44.

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

Dave,

if you just look at the finishing quality, the discovery about the A- and B-Type is dicounted and the whole discusssion about dies and/or repairs was in vain, for you at least.

All A-Types are pre-45!

Some B-Types are pre-45!

And here is the list of B-Types that are identified today (I guess not complete)

935-4
800-4
800
incuse 800
935
unmarked, unmagnetic
...

The difficulty starts with the fact that no 935-4 nor 800-4 have provenance so far.
The unfinished ring and the sloppy white wash on the cross Peter showed is for sure not a good sign.
The silvery finish and the heavy laquer on later unmarked, unmagnetic crosses is not a good sign and is in such a stark contrast to the quality of the early 800 A-Types and even 935-4 that it just cannot be pre-45.

I always wondered about the multiple markings, 800, incuse 800, 935. Why not just stay with 935-4 and 800-4 like Juncker for example? Not putting the "4" on is like hiding the manufacturer, especially with a B-Type that came to the market after the mandatory "marking order" from the PKZ in mid 44.

Dietrich

No reason to put the "4" on a 935 or 800 in incuse relief "B" type cross if the war is over, as at that point, the PK would no longer mind at all.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom,

so is it your opinion that B-Types w/o a "4" are postwar?

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

Tom,

so is it your opinion that B-Types w/o a "4" are postwar?

Dietrich

Well, my opinion is not worth much. But based on the information you have presented and reading that enormous thread, I would feel quite confident with a 935 "4" cross without flaws on the vertical 3 oclock arm and a 800 "4" incuse relief without the same flaws. I would not be happy with a "B" type cross without the "4" marking, flaws on the 3 oclock arm, or a "B" type in neusilber or a non-magnetic core. A "B" type with 800 only without flaws would not cause me distress either.

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich, I said "among other things" and just wished to get a discussion going of general hints folks look at or for!


The die discussion kept heading toward...'post war vs. period' so this may be a cleaner way to get there

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

I see . Yes, unfortunately this is the core question! Who cares about repaired or new dies if it would not be a way to answer the pre/post question.

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

What are some of the "other things" you look for, Dave?

[Brian S]

I would stay away from any B Type with flaws. It does come back to the die and the repairs. Immediately after the repairs, the crosses were near perfect except for the material spill. Any swasi crosses to appear with the 'step' are postwar.

The B Type with just an 800 is in my mind among the earliest, struck before the '4' was introduced on the crosses.

[Peter Wiking]

I wonder what made them not finish the ring. Could it be that hard ? Regardless if it is pre or post 1945.

Cheers.
Peter

[Dave Kane]

George, I'd like to hear some of the other guys' observations and opinions before I throw mine in. Let's give it a bit and see where we may go!

[George Stimson]

Okay, Dave. Let's see what they say!

[Dave Kane]

Here's a hint!

[Brian S]

Ah yes, the post painting process. Described often as "common" feature of S&L RKs as if the frosting process turned black. Never understood that one.