KC outer carton

[Leroy]

What is interesting though is the purported time frame and that does lead to question further the gauge of the cardboard!


Marcus

Some believe the 800-4 cross to be the last wartime S&L; some believe the 935-4 to be the last; some believe them to both be wartime; some believe them both to be postwar. On a personal note, it is hard for me to imagine that anyone who has actually handled a mint specimen of either would think them postwar.

But that is a digression. What cardboard would you expect to see in the 1944-45 time frame?

[Leroy]

This is the photo of the pertinent area of the S&L carton pictured in Niemann's book.

THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS THE PROPERTY OF DETLEV NIEMANN

[km-spain]

Thanks Leroy .

The three boxes sides with maker stamp put together.

[Ludwig]

IMO the material is way too thick and the construction is not the same as known originals, like the Niemann attributed one, that, by the way, once belonged to me :-)
Of course I can be wrong – it´s not impossible that S&L had more than one supplier – but until proven otherwise, this is not an original outer box to me.

[MH184]

Thank you for indulging me gentlemen.

What cardboard would I expect to see? Not as thick a grade as such as this!!!

Considering the speculated time-frame and all the purpose built cartons and boxes (not the spurious supplementary types) by design were constructed in a thinner gauge (specific and generic: cartons, boxes and outer cartons) cardboard of various grades - something doesn't add up here.

And not only that I have had an example in my hands and I'm not convinced this is wartime.

I also find it hard to imagine why anyone would suspect this carton as wartime, but opinions are provisional and based on ones intuition.

I can't stipulate enough that the only end to this controversy will be through ''science'', and I implore you Eduardo to seek professional guidance (museum or specialist insurers) as in how to achieve this - you will not find a substantiated answer on this forum either way.



Kr


Marcus

[MH184]

IMO the material is way too thick and the construction is not the same as known originals, like the Niemann attributed one, that, by the way, once belonged to me :-)
Of course I can be wrong – it´s not impossible that S&L had more than one supplier – but until proven otherwise, this is not an original outer box to me.

S&L and many of the other Ludenscheid makers sourced their packaging wares from the very same company further a field.

FLL was one of the makers who did not share the same company.

[km-spain]

Thanks all for you opinions and arguments, all are much apreciated.

[Albert]

Perhaps Albert could share with us the background of the carton housing his 935-4 cross. These crosses are deemed late war (44-45).

It came from another collector who got it from another collector... So, nothing there that could add to a time-line or provenance.

[Kevin V.]

Marcus I can only agree with this!

The best solution for the seller is to invest a few hundred euro in an 'age test' of the cardboard and ink as these pieces are so rare and for a price of 3500 euro I think a buyer wants to be absolutely sure. Of course I don't know how much you paid yourself but I believe it is worth the effort.

Best regards
Kevin

[Leroy]

I can't stipulate enough that the only end to this controversy will be through ''science'', and I implore you Eduardo to seek professional guidance (museum or specialist insurers) as in how to achieve this - you will not find a substantiated answer on this forum either way.
Marcus

Sound advice and perhaps we will learn something. The last part of the quote above is certainly true.

It sounds as though Marcus already knows something about the "outsourcing" practices of Ludenschied companies which might be of interest to the badge and decoration collectors among us.

[Jeff V]

Do the scientific tests referred to have the required sensitivity to be able to tell if cardboard or ink was made in 1945 or 1948 for instance?
best wishes,
jeff

[tgn]

Do the scientific tests referred to have the required sensitivity to be able to tell if cardboard or ink was made in 1945 or 1948 for instance?
best wishes,
jeff

Good point. I doubt it could...

Tom

[Allan P.]

You may not get a definitive answer, but it could exclude chemicals that were patented after 1945 which would result in a reasonable doubt that something was made after a certain date, which would normally be good enough for a court!!

Allan

[Jeff V]

You may not get a definitive answer, but it could exclude chemicals that were patented after 1945 which would result in a reasonable doubt that something was made after a certain date, which would normally be good enough for a court!!

Allan

I agree, but this would only apply to chemicals patented after the war. I would not expect any new patents pertaining to ink and cardboard to begin in Germany for some years after WW2. So, if the cardboard outer case was made last year(or in the previous 20 or so years) it would most likely be exposed as a fake. However, IMO it is unlikely it would be exposed as a fake if S&L starting making post war RK sets a few years after WW2.
best wishes,
jeff

[Robert T.]

I agree, but this would only apply to chemicals patented after the war. I would not expect any new patents pertaining to ink and cardboard to begin in Germany for some years after WW2. So, if the cardboard outer case was made last year(or in the previous 20 or so years) it would most likely be exposed as a fake. However, IMO it is unlikely it would be exposed as a fake if S&L starting making post war RK sets a few years after WW2.
best wishes,
jeff

Where does it end; A POSTWAR CARDBOARD BOX....IF THE TREE GREW DURING THE WAR, IS THE BOX ANY GOOD.
________
Robert