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EAGLE ORDER 1st CLASS CASE QUESTION

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    #31
    [QUOTE=Peter J. According to you, a cross marked with a "5" and "21" is produced post-43. That´s correct, but what happened to the "900"?. You see my point [/QUOTE]

    In 1943-1945, there were crosses of 5th category with markings "900 21" in the ring and "21" in the ring, and "5" at the fan. The two types of marking coexisted in that period.

    There are also variants to this rule, such as orders of Eagle brands and transitional Eagle orders, manufactured with the design of 1939-1943 but with the ring marked "900 21" corresponding to 1943-1945. This is not a standard, in this case, simply the manufacturer added new rings to the parts they already had in stock to be delivered that were manufactured in 1939-1945...

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      #32
      "I only say that the orders of 3rd/5th category displayed normally these markings:"

      Thanks M, that´s what I wanted to hear. I´m sure you can appreciate the difference between "normally" and "always"

      cheers
      Peter

      Comment

        #33
        Originally posted by Peter J. View Post
        "I only say that the orders of 3rd/5th category displayed normally these markings:"

        Thanks M, that´s what I wanted to hear. I´m sure you can appreciate the difference between "normally" and "always"

        cheers
        Peter
        Of course, there are always exceptions. For example I have an order of the German Eagle in first class with swords that shows in the ring marking "900 S" instead of showing the marking "900" or "900 21" and that is not to say that it is false.
        look at the images.

        I do not mean that you always have to be such marks without the possibility of variations. Those would be the normal markings but there were changes at all. Many workshops took advantage of the specimens that had them in stock without distributing the previous design and added them other marks or rings belonging to the new period but these parts are more rare to see.
        Attached Files

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          #34
          Peter's pic

          Posting a pic for Peter.

          cheers
          Matt
          Attached Files

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            #35
            Thanks Matt, greatly appreciated

            M, feel free to comment.

            cheers
            Peter

            Comment

              #36
              Hello Peter, long ago we have been talking about this and if we don't talk more I think it's because we don't have new clues about it. Silver brand and maker's mark are very useful to differentiate 1939 models and those from 1943 in combination with the design of the pieces, but all those markings that have been appearing over the years can be internal codes of the workshop depending on: the piece base, the number of orders the workshop received and perhaps, why not, the final recipients.

              If this is truth, then trying to fix all, regulations, stock crosses, different orders from one embassy to another and so in different times and all this with more sense in the lower grades... It's probably a maze with no exit.

              Comment

                #37
                Pablo, finally some words that make sense! I fully agree, there is no axiom in this equation and that´s why I so stubbornly object to senor M´s categorical claim that crosses should be marked in this or that way, in order to quality for a specific award date. Perhaps some one is the process of writing a book on this topic, but nothing presented here so far has had any substancial content in regards of reference. Assumptions will always be assumptions.

                Feliz Navidad
                Peter

                Comment

                  #38
                  Friend Peter. You just don't understand me. I do not mean that each Medal was a single marking because I say so... I think I have already explained it sufficiently...

                  A medal showing the 21 marking, has to correspond with total security to the period 1942-1945, since the manufacturer marking was authorized and adopted in 1942, for this reason, we cannot find medals manufactured before this date with manufacturer marking.

                  Until that moment, made medals showed only the marking with the quality of the silver that were manufactured and, in the case of most medals the name of the manufacturer as it is the case with the medal in silver showing the marking "835 PR. MÜNZE BERLIN

                  The other categories or not were marking or simply showed the "900" mark. It is from the entry into force of numbers from manufacturer (1942) when they begin to see medals with these brands and, in the case of the order of the German Eagle, we can see the marks "900 21", so say that this medal is of the period 1943-1945 when it changed the rules of the order.

                  It is true, as I said earlier, that there could be several exceptions and there are marks, so far, inexplicable or whose meaning we do not know, but that's another story.

                  For me, for example:

                  The "SILVER 900" mark on the badges of 2nd belongs to the period 1937-1939

                  The marking "900" belongs to the period 1939-1943

                  The marking "900 21" belongs to the period 1943-1945

                  There are exceptions that can fit in one or other period but the general rule is that have already tried many times.

                  If you have evidence showing otherwise, show them and convince us. I am not going to believe your theory simply because you claim it.


                  I hope that this time you I understand. My knowledge of the English language is not very good, and sometimes I write things that are not that mean

                  Comment

                    #39
                    "Friend Peter. You just don't understand me. I do not mean that each Medal was a single marking because I say so... I think I have already explained it sufficiently..."

                    M, you´re right, we might be lost in translation. I do understand what you´re saying and that´s the point I´m trying to establish. From what I can read here, your explainations are based only on what you´re saying, not by any reference with acual value.

                    "A medal showing the 21 marking, has to correspond with total security to the period 1942-1945, since the manufacturer marking was authorized and adopted in 1942, for this reason, we cannot find medals manufactured before this date with manufacturer marking."

                    Your previous assurence that "900","21" marked crosses always was 1943-45 and marked "5" on the fan. After my comment about the possible introduction of PK numbers already in 1942, you now seem to accept that.

                    "The other categories or not were marking or simply showed the "900" mark. It is from the entry into force of numbers from manufacturer (1942) when they begin to see medals with these brands and, in the case of the order of the German Eagle, we can see the marks "900 21", so say that this medal is of the period 1943-1945 when it changed the rules of the order."

                    And now we´re back to were we started! Once again you state that the "21" is present only on the 1943-45 crosses. You ask for proof and I gave you an image of an unquestionable "3" positioned on the fan of cross marked "900" and "21" and the document labelled Verdienstkreuz 3.Stufe Okt 1942! We´ve been discussing this back and forth and if you re-check post #18 you´ll see that this was my only real objection to your categorical statement about "21" and apparently not all that wrong.

                    Feliz Navidad
                    Peter

                    Comment

                      #40
                      In this regard you say, only I can say that, until just today I have seen the 1943-1945 period with the marking crosses "900 21" or "21" in the ring and a 5 on the fan when we speak of the 5th class, previously considered third-class cross.

                      Not stated categorically that there not a cross of 5th class with the 3 marking of the fan but, for now, only I've seen marking crosses of 5th class 5 and 3 in the fan-marking when we speak of the 3rd class of the 1943-1945 period before considered 1st class.

                      However, there are variations as we have seen in the above marking by my images of a 5th class with marking "900 21" in the ring and marked 'L' on the ball on the fan.

                      Merry Christmas Peter

                      In spanish:

                      En cuanto a esto último que dices, solo puedo decir que, hasta hoy solo he visto cruces del período 1943-1945 con el marcaje "900 21" ó "21" en la anilla y un 5 en el abanico cuando hablamos de la Cruz de 5ª clase, antes considerada de tercera clase.

                      No afirmo categóricamente que no pueda existir una cruz de 5ª clase con el marcaje 3 en el abanico pero, de momento, solo he visto el marcaje 5 en las cruces de 5ª clase y el marcaje 3 en el fan cuando hablamos de la 3ª clase del período 1943-1945 antes considerada 1ª clase.

                      No obstante, hay variaciones como hemos podido comprobar en el marcaje antes expuesto por mi en imágenes de una 5ª clase con marcaje "900 21" en la anilla y marca "L" en la bola sobre el abanico.

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