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EAGLE ORDER 1st CLASS CASE QUESTION

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    #16
    After the new regulation of the order of the German Eagle in 1943, the order of neck who was formerly first class becomes the third class of the order of the Eagle but the medal cases were still showing the same legend and that we see in the inside of the box order legend Adlerorden vom Deutschen Adler I Stufe although it actually were a third class as shown by the marking "900 21 '' typical of the 1943-1945 period.

    However, according to the legend which shows, I think that this case is not of the 1943-1945 period. The box belonged to an order of the Eagle of first class of the period 1939-1943.
    Look in the image attached
    Attached Files

    Comment

      #17
      Regarding markings for early or late neck crosses, It seems to me the early medals have the 900 21, and the later have just 900, can anyone verify my assumption to be correct or innacurate...and if so clarify . I have had both examples in the past...thanks.

      Comment

        #18
        M, this is most certainly interesting info and worth contemplating. I´m not sure where the "Orden vom Deutschen Adler, Verdienstkreuz 1. Stufe" fits in this equation and perhaps you´re correct. Its rather confusing with the different statements from various authors.

        Angolia is referring to both "Verdienstkreuz 1. Stufe des Ordens vom Deutschen Adler" (1937) and "Orden vom Deutschen Adler, Verdienstkreuz 1. Stufe (actually a 2.Stufe cross)" (1937/39), but Niemann only refers to "Verdienstkreuz 1. Stufe des Ordens vom Deutschen Adler" (1937/39.

        I´ve previously emphasized the importence of using the correct classification when dealing with the actual awards, in order to avoid confusion i.e. using "Stufe" or "Klasse" when appropriate. Apparently this isn´t that easy when it comes to cases or documents. Niemann did mention that he never encountered a post-43 document with the distinction "Klasse" and personally I´ve seen one document issued in May 1944 with "Stufe"!

        As for the markings on crosses 1943-45, I don't think it´s written in stone that "900" and "21" were limited only to these crosses. The only clear distinction would be the number referring to the grade on the fan. Once again, I´ve seen a 3 Stufe with the markings "21", "900" and a "3" on the fan.

        One final comment. It´s been suggested by both Pablo and myself that the Grand Cross of 1937 equals the 1.Klasse of 1943. This is partly correct in the sense they were both viewed as Crand Crosses and worn as such from a sash. However the 1.Klasse cross was only 50mm (GC 60mm) and had silvered eagles. To complicate matters even further, there was also a Grand Cross of 1943 (60mm).

        cheers
        Peter

        Comment

          #19
          Originally posted by juoneen View Post
          Regarding markings for early or late neck crosses, It seems to me the early medals have the 900 21, and the later have just 900, can anyone verify my assumption to be correct or innacurate...and if so clarify . I have had both examples in the past...thanks.
          Completely unlike friend...

          The first order of the Eagle German 1937, did not have the upper fan where this ring and showed the marking 900 in the bottom of the profile of the cross.

          The following, for the period 1939-1943, show the marking "900" in the ring on the fan.

          In 1943, the order of the German Eagle suffers a new revision, the neck cross is now the third class of the order of the Eagle and displays marking "900 21" in the ring on the fan.

          Comment

            #20
            Originally posted by Peter J. View Post

            One final comment. It´s been suggested by both Pablo and myself that the Grand Cross of 1937 equals the 1.Klasse of 1943. This is partly correct in the sense they were both viewed as Crand Crosses and worn as such from a sash. However the 1.Klasse cross was only 50mm (GC 60mm) and had silvered eagles. To complicate matters even further, there was also a Grand Cross of 1943 (60mm).

            cheers
            Peter
            1937 categories:


            1943 revision new categories:


            Originally posted by Peter J. View Post

            As for the markings on crosses 1943-45, I don't think it´s written in stone that "900" and "21" were limited only to these crosses. The only clear distinction would be the number referring to the grade on the fan. Once again, I´ve seen a 3 Stufe with the markings "21", "900" and a "3" on the fan.

            You say that you've seen in the fan, it is not a 3... is a 5 as you can see in this order 5th class of my collection, with marks of "21" in the ring and "5" on the fan




            Finally the making mark "900 21" only appears in the decorations from 1943-1945.

            Comment

              #21
              "You say that you've seen in the fan, it is not a 3... is a 5 as you can see in this order 5th class of my collection, with marks of "21" in the ring and "5" on the fan".

              "Finally the making mark "900 21" only appears in the decorations from 1943-1945."

              Oh well, what can I say I assume you´ve got some real evidence for these two statements or do you think I´m just blowing smoke up your behind?

              cheers
              Peter
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              Comment

                #22
                Originally posted by Peter J. View Post
                "You say that you've seen in the fan, it is not a 3... is a 5 as you can see in this order 5th class of my collection, with marks of "21" in the ring and "5" on the fan".

                "Finally the making mark "900 21" only appears in the decorations from 1943-1945."

                Oh well, what can I say I assume you´ve got some real evidence for these two statements or do you think I´m just blowing smoke up your behind?

                cheers
                Peter
                <table id="post6176237" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="alt1" id="td_post_6176237">
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                From 1939 until the LDO system was introduced (Leistungs Gemeinschaft der Deutscher Ordenshersteller Numbers) in mid-1942, the awards not was marked with the number of the manufacturer, both the delivered by the army as the private acquisition in stores.

                Starting from the date of implementation of LDO the awards given by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs the Army carry the marking with the number of the manufacturer, for example "21", and those of private acquisition, were always marked with the LDO, for example "L/50" code.

                A Eagle Order with the maker mark 21 on the ring It should then be manufactured in the period 1943-1945.

                look well at the marking... do you think a 3?...I think that it looks perfectly is a 5
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #23
                  It is possible, friend Pete, who talk about different decorations. After 1943, new regulation order for neck which was first class and, after the regulation is referred to as third category could appear with the marking "900 21" in the ring and a "3" in the fan. Look at this example in the images
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #24
                    My friend M,

                    The only thing I´m certain about, is the fact that the DAO is not well researched and I strongly object to making statements presented as "facts", without any real verifiable reference. Ailsby is pretty knowledgable, but every time one asks for some specific info, he refers to his forth-coming book.

                    There are three things we know: the institution of the 5 grades and 1 Medaille of DAO 1.May 1937. This is stipulated in the first book I´m aware of dealing with this topic (Klietmann 1957) and also presented in Uniformenmarkt. We also know that the first pieces came without a fan.

                    Now it´s getting complicated though. Klietmann refers to a "Verordnung des Führers über die Änderung der Satzung des , Verdienstorden vom Deutschen Adler, from 20.April 1939. In Artikel 2 (1) he presents the 6 KLASSES and (2) the institution of a Goldenes Grosskreuz. (3) confirms the institution of the swords. The next "Änderung according to Klietmann offurs 7.März when the appropriate grades (rank) in relation to awards is presented. This announcement was also presented in Uniformenmarkt, but with no reference to Klasse, swords or rank. An illustration of a cross with swords was added though.

                    Angolia and Ailsby had a different view though i.e. the introduction of Klasse didn´t occur before 27.Dec 1943. In view of the PK numbers it´s fair to believe they were correct. I haven´t seen the actual regulation published, but assume it´s out there to be found. Both authors had a common flaw, they had no idea how to distinguish the difference between LDO-numbers and PK-numbers.

                    LDO was established in Marz 1941 and yes, the L-marked pieces (L/50) were intented for sale in retail shops only. It was previously thought that the PK-numbers started to be used in 1944 and from that it´s convenient to assume that the "21"-marked crosses were issued only after 1943. With the new assumption of 1942, it would make no sense why they shouldn't be marked with "21" from that date. I checked the cross I was talking about a few days ago and I´m certain it was a "3". I´ll see if I can arrange a photo close-up soon.

                    cheers
                    Peter

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Friend Pete.

                      Perhaps you do not know that I have worked with the same Ailsby in the realization of that book that has still not been published providing my list of decorated Spanish and clarifying certain details that he does not have very clear from my point of view, as well as giving my opinion on what the will present as a copy of the Grand Cross in gold, for me there is original, but a copy or souvenir of post-war.

                      Ailsby, for me, is wrong in certain details.

                      I can assure that the orders of the Eagle German marked "900 21" are post-1943 concession and that in the case of the crosses to show in chest (5Th class), the number shown on the top of the fan is a "5", at least I've never seen a marked with a "3" at the same time showing the "21" mark on the ring.

                      In the case of the neck Eagle Orders, if that can show a "3" in the fan when they were manufactured and issued after 1943.

                      You can believe or not believe in what they say but unless you show me otherwise, this is so

                      Comment

                        #26
                        I hope that you do not confuse this mark with a 3.

                        The image on the left is a third class of 1939-1943 and what looks like a "3" is a "W"
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #27
                          M, you have a magnificent collection and I´m convinced that you´ve studied this topic with great interest. With that said, we may have difficulties regarding translation, but I find it very frustrating to discuss this with you. It´s one thing to modestly present an assumption, but stating it as a fact with only experience to the stuff one has handled is too much for me to accept.

                          I´ve already accounted for the "facts" we all seem to agree to, but the actual markings on the crosses aren´t accounted for without doubt. The fact that you haven´t seen a 3.Stufe with "900", "21" and a "3" doesn´t automatically render it an impossibility. According to you, a cross marked with a "5" and "21" is produced post-43. That´s correct, but what happened to the "900"?. You see my point

                          Like I said, I´m in the process of getting an image of the markings, but unfortunately cold weather and snow has limited my options in travelling with a motorbike. I´ll get back to you as soon as I can.

                          cheers
                          Peter

                          Comment

                            #28
                            I do not say that there are markings that are out of the norm, I only say that this is the ordinary standard of the markings.

                            There were also orders Eagle 5th class with marking 900 21 in the ring (see attached images) and I have even seen a cross which has the marcje 900 21 in the ring and at the same time, shows on top of the ball at the top of the fan the "L" mark, characteristic of some stamp orders of the Eagle, third class of the period 1939-1945.

                            I have also seen orders Eagle without any marking and not why they cease to be authentic.

                            I only say that the orders of 3rd/5th category displayed normally these markings:

                            - 1937-1939......."900"in the lower of the profile of the cross (manufactured by Deschler und Sohn, München)

                            -1939-1943... Marking of initial "W", "T", "L", "TT", "8" or similar marks on the ball that are over the fan(manufactured by Gebr. Godet & Co., Berlin)

                            -1943-1945..........."900 21" in the ring or 21 in the ring and 5 on the fan (made by Gebr. Godet &Co., Berlin)
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #29
                              more....

                              The last image is a rare specimen with the markings 1939-1943 and 1943-1945
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #30
                                designs of the manufacturers
                                Attached Files

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