One For Pascal - Krim Shield - Please take a look

[TobyR]

Hi Everybody,

Here (hopefully) are some pics of the reverse. Since the backing cloth wasn't correct, I removed it. You can see my findings below: the shield did have tabs but they have been snapped off at some time. Also, in the reverse of the shield you can see a cloth base.

The backing plate was glued between the two pieces of cloth, and the shield in turn, had been glued (using the cloth in the rear of the shield as a binding agent) to the main backing cloth (hope this makes sense).

Anyway, I'll let the pics do the talking. On one of them I've tried to show where the tab was.

Thanks again.

Best regards,
Toby.

[TobyR]

And another:

[TobyR]

And a shot of where the tab once was:

[TobyR]

A peek at the back of the shield, i.e. lifting up the actual shield back cloth:

[Pascal H.]

Dear Toby,
I am sorry for my late reply but as I told you I was waiting for my first so called FO type Krim shield to arrive. Today it came and I am very pleased with it. I bought this shield from a fellow member who I want to thank and to congratulate with his engagement.
Thanks and congratulation Ian .

The first thing you notice when you are looking at an original FO shield is the high level of detail. I am afraid that is lacking on yours. I am still convinced that yours is a copy of a FO. I have to say that yours is a very good copy and only comparing it next to an original you will see the difference.
I will post the highly detailed eagles head of the FO shield. Compare that to yours………… see what I mean??

[Pascal H.]

Another striking difference is the eagles wings, they are completely different.<O</O

Based on comparing the two shield next to each other I can come only to the conclusion that yours is a fake.
I am verry sorry that my first thoughts were positive but I am hoping that you can see why I came to this conclusion.

KR
Pascal

[Patrick W]

Pascal,

I do not think that Toby's shield can be compared to the FO. The differences are just too many. The gap between beak and wing on Toby's is much larger than on the original FO that you posted amongst other things.

Having said that it does not look as good as it did initially, the backing plate has no holes or indents to accomodate tabs whatsoever- a new on me.
If it is fake then I think that it probably isn't a direct copy from an original type but rather a conglomeration of elements from several shields. I still quite like the look of the eagle but haven't been able to find a match, no where near.

ps. Toby, are there clear breaks where the tabs have come off or does it look like a casting?

[TobyR]

@ Pascal - Thanks for posting the images. There are clearly differences between the two shields: mine, if there is a chance that it is a genuine shield, is clearly not by Orth.

I think it might help to completely disregard the backing plate and cloth (there are two pieces and both are of the same type). I wonder if there is a possibility that this is an original shield, by who I don't know, that has been 'restored', whether for deception or not, by fixing it to backing cloth (x2) and plate.

@ Patrick - The tabs have definitely snapped off, at some point in time; I'm sure the remains are not the result of casting. I tried to pick this out in an earlier photo but it is really hard to catch it.

Also, what about the backing fabric in the reverse of the shield itself? This fabric shows age, and looks almost moth-eaten. Not that age can't be reproduced.

Another point is the wear to the highpoints of the eagle: the plating has worn to reveal brass highlights below. Would a reproduction show this? It doesn't look artificially produced.

I'll try and get some better photos of the tab remains tomorrow.

Thanks for your comments.

Best regards,
Toby.

[Pascal H.]

Patrick,
I am sorry but I do no agree with you here. When comparing all the characteristics of a Krim shield you can see clearly that Toby’s shield is a copy of a FO shield. I will post some comparing pictures of only a few characteristics only to be found on FO shields. As you may understand I won’t post all of them. As you can clearly see Toby’s shield is a copy of a FO shield.
<O
As for the tabs, there are original FO shields with tabs and with prongs although FO shields with tabs are much rarer.

KR
Pascal

Date

[Pascal H.]

Typical "R" in KRIM

[Pascal H.]

Detail

[Pascal H.]

I could of course be mistaken but I have never seen a shield with all those characteristics and not been made my FO.
I would love to see another original shield with all those characteristics made by another maker.

KR<O</O
Pascal

[Patrick W]

Pascal,

Those are some great comparisons you've posted. In particular the peculiar 'R', I had not noted that before. There are certainly a lot of close similarities between Toby's shield and the FO but I still see many differences.
I can only say that I am at a loss with this one. the eagle's head is quite unique and if I were to try and copy a shield this is one area that I would make sure I got as near as possible. But thats just me.
Its certainly not cast etc from an original fo shield although many elements as you rightly point out are the same. Personally I would tend towards this being an original shield of unknown type that has been remounted at some point.
Does anyone know of any fake that matches that eagle profile?

Toby if I were you I'd send it back, too hard to tell either way. This one will remain in the undecided bracket for me. (I'd glue it back together before you pop it in the post though!)