CHOLM shield :: Long-M variant

[Christopher G.]

Bnz. 42,

As much as we dont get along, I must say that you did very well to explain your findings and research. With the new photos of your shield and the emergence of the die flaw that I never noticed before, I will also like to take back my previous statement of your shield being a fake. I do now believe that your shield is a good one...for sure.

Because of your attitude towards me I did not respond to your threads but I did go back and restarted my own research and found MANY similarities in your shield and other long M shields.

The major issue I found with your shield for me was the sort of "grainy" look to the flat sections of the obverse of the shield. When looking at other Long M's I found the same textures. This differs a lot to the short M's where they have a VERY sharp obverse detail. I guess I should compare red apples to red apples and not red apples to green apples.

Another issue for me was the "thickness" of the talons clutching the swaz. But seeing the newer photos you have provided that has solved that issue for me aswell. I really do think that the original photos distorted the eagles talons & the beak, which are were my previous issues.

I also like the very typical thick silver finish and the common chipping/flaking around the edges.

My original opinion on the shield was wrong but I do however feel that my opinion, was just that, my opinion. I just dont feel that berating me was the right way to start to teach me. Although I do understand how you can be mad or upset in the situation.

Regards,
Chris G.

[Tim B.]

First, I want to say thanks for a very interesting thread! Too many times I miss the threads that lead to actual discussions and only want to know if something is or isn't, or how much it might get on the estand. So...THANK YOU!!

Nicely researched, thought out, and presented. I agree, a good thread to either be pinned or definately one to use for a later pinned thread on Cholm shields.

I know sometimes personal opinions can get in the way and lead to conflicts or bad feelings between members here, or result in someone walking away altogether and I am glad to see both of you coming back together here.

I think we need to be mindful sometimes when we make our comments towards other's opinions and remember it is a discussion forum and this is the way we all learn. I think Pascal would agree, that of all the BS that sometimes happens on other forums, this new "Campaign Shields and Cufftitles" forum is going to try and be better for everyone that wants to participate.

I would like to ask if anyone did contact Stijn David so he could also benefit from the discussion here?

Thanks again for a great thread!
Tim

[BAR1918A3]

Number 2

Does the shape of the "2" have any relevance in determing if they are a Long-M or Short-M shield? In the posted pictures it looks like the shape of the "2" is different. BAR

[Christopher G.]

Does the shape of the "2" have any relevance in determing if they are a Long-M or Short-M shield? In the posted pictures it looks like the shape of the "2" is different. BAR

Here you go...this should explain it.

[bnz. 42]

Does the shape of the "2" have any relevance in determing if they are a Long-M or Short-M shield? In the posted pictures it looks like the shape of the "2" is different. BAR

You are right, Bar, and in fact, not only the "M" and the number "2", also the swaz, eagle head, feathearing, basically everything is different on "Long-M" and "Short-M" shields. Obviously, two different designs of one shield and "Long-M" and "Short-M" shields were made by different makers using completely different dies. Below is comparison of "Long-M" and "Short M" details.




Also interesting to note that when the Cholm Shield was reissued in 1957, they used the "Long-M" war-time style (not Short-M) for the new "Cholm" shield without the Swaz.

[Tim B.]

That's a neat trick!! How did you manage that?
Tim

[Christopher G.]

yah...that is pretty cool!

Chris

[Thomas Durante]

Great thread guys! bnz, very well done, I like the research and presentation alot.

Tom

[m11011963]

very good thread.
Good work by bnz.42

regards
Mike

[A c h t u n g !]

My contribution to this great thread about Cholmshield. Below is an interesting pricelist from the WW2 period. It shows that shields were sold from outlets "with cloth and metal plate", "with metal plate and no cloth" and "with no cloth and no metal plate". It explains why some shileds have no backing materials and plates or sometimes cruedly "self/field-made" ones.

[A c h t u n g !]

By the way there is a new book about Cholm battle has been just published "Besieged: The Epic Battle for Cholm"

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=528575

Cool to note that the exact shield that started this thread is on the cover of this new book

[Pitomnik]

This scan of page from french "Militaria magazin" ! May be somebody have this magazine, and pasted this page in good quality ?

[Don Bible]

CHOLM SHIELD--LONG M TYPE--VETERAN BRING-BACK

These two campaign shields and the unmarked early Juncker Heer Paratrooper badge are all 1945 "bring back" items from a local veteran here in Greene County, Tennessee that I have known for over 60 years.

They were sold two weeks ago along with a Kuban Shield, a cloth German Cross in Gold still in the cellophane, a tank destruction strip and several other badges and medals along with cloth wound badges, yards of medal ribbons, and a lot of original medal envelopes.

After the three items pictured here, I ran out of money and trading material. The sale was advertised only locally except for a listing on AuctionZip which brought in four or five collectors and dealers from out-of-State.

Neither the family nor the auctioneer knew the names of the pieces. They were taken from the old wooden box in which they were all piled together, and placed in plastic sandwich bags and given a number for bidding purposes.

Although only a few persons attended the estate sale, the competition was fierce for the German pieces which were found by the veteran's daughter only a few weeks ago, in a remote part of the house, piled in the old wooden box in which they were returned in mid-1945.

The family had no idea how the veteran acquired the medals as he never spoke of them. All the pieces appeared and smelled very old, but had never been issued. The soldier was in an armored outfit, as a driver.

The Heer paratrooper badge sold first and there was furious bidding for it. I was the broke but happy successful bidder. I did have enough left to acquire the CHOLM SHIELD...one of the three campaign shields...but no more.

Fortunately I was able to get the Demjansk shield from one of the out-of- State collectors, by offering him a considerable profit, in trade, for other German items immediately after he bought it.

[Antonio Scapini]

Congrats Don for these 3 pieces, especially for the Army para badge and the Cholm. A very good catch!

[HAF]

fantastic trio Sir ,love the army para