unknown german cross

[pattex]

Never seen an open hingeblock on any Deschler 57er, not that I can remember anyway!!
Deschler is thought to have only produced for a small number of years, way back in the early days of 57 production, while the open hingeblock didn't appear until the late 60's, so these two shouldn't really be found together???
Looking at the photo's, the assembly of the DK, especially the EK and wreath look less than perfect......
What can this tell us???
Could this be a later assembled piece, using some older, and some later parts??
-Very strange!!!!
-Nigel

Hello all,
the thing is, nobody of us knows when did Deschler (or whoever produced it) use the open or the closed hingeblock exactly ?

We are talking about a difference of only ten years and reflect the production timeline and components, that we know from S&L (a mass producer), directly to Deschler - is this correct?

Perhaps Deschler used the closed hingeblock 1957, 58, 59 and the open example 1960, 61, 62 - who knows?

For me this is insignificant, now I have both versions in the collection .

PS: Thx Matthieu for the pictures - wonderful example .

best regards
Pattex

[Nigel N]

I think this is important, not insignificant, and we can maybe learn something here?
The fact remains that Deschler did not produce for many years, and no open hingeblock 57er is known before 1968, the two things don't match up!!
I wonder if it has some bearing that most Deschler pieces don't hold their finish well, but some, including this DK do, like Alex, I am thinking that perhaps this is a later assembled piece?
Only guesses at the moment!!!
-Nigel

[pattex]

I think this is important, not insignificant, and we can maybe learn something here?
The fact remains that Deschler did not produce for many years, and no open hingeblock 57er is known before 1968, the two things don't match up!!
I wonder if it has some bearing that most Deschler pieces don't hold their finish well, but some, including this DK do, like Alex, I am thinking that perhaps this is a later assembled piece?
Only guesses at the moment!!!
-Nigel

Hello Nigel,
I'm always willing to learn .

But I have two questions, that I can't answer .

- How long did Deschler produce 57er exactly?
- What is the proven fact, that nobody produced a open hingeblock before 1968?

best regards
Pattex

[pattex]

I think this is important, not insignificant, and we can maybe learn something here?

Please have in mind, that I'm not a native speaker - I don't want to upset anybody .

best regards
Pattex

[Nigel N]

No worries, no-one is upset, we are all learning!!!
While we have no one fact that tells us Deschler only produced for a few years, the circumstantial evidence all adds up to that!
Groupings or individual pieces with a purchase date, Deschler medals only appear on the earliest of 57 medalbars, there are no significant variants in the EK, KVK, etc. pointing to a relatively short period of time, they only appear in the earliest publications, nothing points to Deschler being in production much after 1960.
Likewise, purchase dates of pieces direct from S&L, show the solid hingeblock exclusively up to 1968, then from that date the open hingeblock makes its appearance.
The evidence would suggest that only S&L, and the makers that bought parts/ dies from them (Souval & Assmann) used the open hingeblock.
A small number of Deumer pieces, EK1's etc. have an open hingeblock, but these are late pieces that appear to have been finished by S&L.
It might be worth carefully studying this DK, to see if not only all the individual parts match with other Deschler DK's, but also the finish used on each of the parts!!
I wonder if there may be some significance in the use of open rivets, do they match rivets used by S&L??
The other style of rivet used by Deschler is the solid domed type which was also used wartime so should be the earlier of the two!!!
There is a lot which could be learnt here....I hope!!!
-Nigel

[Tony T-S]

Did S&L buy up Deschler components after they ceased production? These could be S&L assembled Deschlers

[pattex]

Likewise, purchase dates of pieces direct from S&L, show the solid hingeblock exclusively up to 1968, then from that date the open hingeblock makes its appearance.

Hello Nigel,
everything ok for S&L, but for example B.H. Mayer used an open hingeblock already on the wartime iron crosses.

So my question ones again:

- What is the proven fact, that nobody produced a open hingeblock before 1968?

My answer is - the proof doesn't exist - quite the contrary is fact.

best regards
Pattex

[pattex]

Hello,
here are pictures of such an EK1, wartime made by B.H. Mayer - a hollow hingeblock.

So is it really the right way to judge about the date of production only from the open hingeblock? I don't think so.

We know a timeline (approximately) for usage of the open hingeblock from only one manufacturer - S&L.

From my perspective it is wrong to transfer this on all the other producers.

If we do so, then the wartime EK1 by B.H. Mayer is after 1968 .

best regards
Pattex

[grueni1208]

Why Deschler?
There are no Deschler parts to see, which were used during war, too.
These kind of DK are to find with early hinge and pin system, too.

IMO an unknown little DK maker.
The gold ring with the distinctive number design (missing part on the "4") are to find in Dietrichs DK book as possible unknown maker. There are versions with swas, too.

[pattex]

Why Deschler?
There are no Deschler parts to see, which were used during war, too.
These kind of DK are to find with early hinge and pin system, too.

IMO an unknown little DK maker.
The gold ring with the distinctive number design (missing part on the "4") are to find in Dietrichs DK book as possible unknown maker. There are versions with swas, too.

Hello Daniel,
you are right from my perspective, because of that I wrote:

"the thing is, nobody of us knows when did Deschler (or whoever produced it) use the open or the closed hingeblock exactly"

best regards
Pattex

[Nigel N]

Did S&L buy up Deschler components after they ceased production? These could be S&L assembled Deschlers

That is a possible scenario I think Tony
This thread has lots of good info, and shows how we came to the conclusion as to who made what...............
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=748814

[pattex]

That is a possible scenario I think Tony

Honestly I can't follow this train of thought.

Whatever should be the context to S&L ?

best regards
Pattex

PS: Please don't take the open hingeblock, as we all know, this is a repurchased part, that already wartime manufacturer had in use .

[pattex]

Honestly I can't follow this train of thought.

Whatever should be the context to S&L ?

best regards
Pattex

PS: Please don't take the open hingeblock, as we all know, this is a repurchased part, that already wartime manufacturer had in use .

Please, what should be the context to S&L ?

best regards
Pattex

[Nigel N]

Well, everything we know about 57ers is available to see in the old threads here, it is up to you to interpret the evidence and reach your own conclusions!!
If you reach a different conclusion to me, that's fine
As I see it, S&L were almost certainly the only 57 maker of the open hingeblock, providing Souval and Assmann in later years, and using them on leftover & unfinished Deumer pieces after they bought Deumers old stock....it seems possible (to me) that a similar thing has happened here, with unfinished Deschler DK's being finished by S&L, this would also explain why these Deschler DK's with the open hingeblock seem to have a very different finish applied to them when compared with most Deschler pieces, which are well known for losing their finish!!
These pieces are in excellent condition, with the finish pretty much perfect, looking much more like an S&L finished DK, than a Deschler??
In my opinion, it makes no sense to compare a wartime Mayer piece with a postwar Deschler or indeed S&L.....Its like comparing apples with oranges.... Mayer made no 57ers, and to my knowledge had no production arrangement with Deschler or S&L!
Anyway, that's my take on things, as I said if yours is different...no worries!!!
But, theres little or no doubt that Deschler did make this style of DK, whoever actually finished it, and much as I would love to believe it, theres no real eveidence of any "unknown" 57 makers!
-Nigel

[Alex W.]

Just for the fun of it, here is my Deschler DKiG using earlier postwar hardware with closed hinge.
As far as I'm concerned, I believe it's very well possible that S&L received leftovers from Deschler after they closed shop and finished off these pieces.
I also see no sense to compare wartime products to postwar made products. Mayer never made 57ers so why even discuss the maker in a 57er related issue.
In the end it actually doesn't matter much who finished off the DK in question.
The DK remains what it is - a later made piece - the open hinge block hardware (certainly post 1968) speaks for itself. Nothing to argue about that.
Alex