Just came across another example, really nice..................
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sigpic 57ers...."The Devil Is In The Detail" -
Here's a closeup of the EK centre of the Deumer EK1 Spange. little doubt that it is a match to the EK's on the stickpins with bars on the reverse...........
x5.jpgsigpic 57ers...."The Devil Is In The Detail"Comment
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I have been looking into this theory myself lately, which has led me to look into other S&L vs Deumer aspects in regards to stickpins.
First, Let's compare some of the double EK's out there. The first two I believe to be S&L, the third Deumer. S&L almost always stacked minis in combos. Also, it's evident that Deumer almost always took the black finish off the center oaks and date, with varying degrees of success. S&L doesn't seem to have attempted this, instead you see it chipped off the oaks and dates. And of course, S&L adopted a thick, shiny black finish at some point, which added a bit of tackiness never seen on Deumers
Of the 30+ S&L combos in my collection, only 1 have the minis unstacked. As you can see in the top 2 EK pairs, they are both stacked, the second only slightly, but still stacked...In this image of several of my stacks, only the top RK pin is unstackedComment
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Additionally, S&L pieces can be found with no less than 6 types of marks on the rear:
-Flat, no marks
-Depressed center dimple (DK top right)
-Raised simple (Ost second row)
-Large 'O' Ring (CCC third row)
-Small 'O' Ring (Krim shield 4th row)
-Center ring with raised vertical line, possibly for aligned placement of pin (Ost 4th row)
-As far as the proposed Deumers go, the only mark I have seen is a narrow raised vertical line on a couple of OST minisComment
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While I have only seen a couple of S&L's that weren't stacked, several still used rear crossbars. This appears to be predominantly for larger combos for added strength, or when an enamel award had to be placed beside the stack, as it appears enamel badges weren't stacked to avoid damage to the enamel. Sometimes, these crossbars go across the entirety, sometimes only linking the enamel or added award to the rest.
However, all of my S&L's with crossbars have silver bars, and all of my Deumers have brass bars.
The Deumers are on the top, S&L on the bottom...Comment
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Here are several Deumer style stacks, all the EKs have the oaks and date unfinished. It's important to note that Deumer did not exclusively use the stacked single piece for EKI & EKII, for a variety of reasons. Specifically, when an award such as a KVKI would have fallen between the two classes, but also in their 3 place RK/EKI/EKII combos. I assume this is to for a better appearance for this high comboComment
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Hi,
I agree 100% the non S&L produced stick pins are more than likely Deumer produced.
@ Brig: Great info on the S&L marks on the reverse of stick pin minis!
Also, I really like the group image of all of the multiple mini stick pins!
I need to take a similar image of what i have cobbled together.
Best,
Jeff
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This led me to compare some other minis on these combos...very useful when trying to ID if your single is S&L or Deumer!
Here are a variety of WB minis...I didn't include any of the later glossy black S&L WB since it's hard to capture the details. Many of these are taken from combos in this topic, as well as others posted throughout the forum, thanks to all members who posted them here!
Top row is the 'Deumer' pins, bottom is S&L. Notice the differences...very distinct. The Deumers have a much more distinct pebbling than the S&L, and the pebbling disappeared almost entirely from the S&Ls over time. Also, the rivets on the Deumers are fairly distinct, whereas they are much more obscure on the S&Ls. After these realizations, I realized 2 of my 3 SWB singles were in fact DeumersComment
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Notice the comparison of KVKs between Deumer (top) and S&L (bottom) as seen through a lope. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a background/light combo that allows me clear and detailed images of these 57er minis...must be the finishes, as I have taken countless crisp and clear images of US insignias in the sunlight without ANY of these light reflection issues I'm having. If Jeff or Matthieu wish to share their secrets, I'd be much obliged
S&L did a much better job with the texture on their KVK as opposed to their WB, but there are distinct differences in the '3' and '9' between firms. Notice the flat topped '3' of the Deumer as opposed to the rounded top of the S&L, and the elongated line of the '9' on the Deumer as opposed to the more curled S&LComment
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Let's compare the OST mini between the two firms. I've omitted the later S&Ls, as the finish became thick and sloppy later on, often off center
Top is the S&L, bottom is the Deumer
S&L seems to have done better on this particular mini than Deumer. The S&L helmet is much more domed and higher, the the stick grenade is much more distinguishable than the Deumer. However, the Deumer does have a better pronounced rivet on the front of the helmet. The S&L pieces also have a larger head on the eagle, and vertically the oak leaf cluster is noticeably wider than on the DeumerComment
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Top 2 S&L, lower 2 DeumerComment
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Deumer style pins. All have a left twist, associated with Deumer, except the last...which is believed to be a repaired example, possibly with a replacement pin
Unfortunately, you can't rely on the pin alone, as S&L twists seem to vary in direction and style, and some even appear the same as Deumer. Don't rely on the pin to ID a Deumer alone!Comment
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Finally, a quick study of some war badges. Deumer pieces with war badges aren't that easy to find...and the images I found were varying quality...but you can see some examples here. Deumers on the top, S&L on the bottom
Overall, the Deumer pieces appear to be thicker in construction. With the IAB, the Deumer pieces tend to taper to more of a point at the top, whereas the S&L are more round.
As far as the GAB goes, it appears the differences are again in the eagle's heads
And for the U-Boat...Deumer appears to have a higher quality wreath, but there are distinct differences in the top outline of the U-Boat. Hopefully in time and as I acquire more pieces, I can do a further, more in-depth studyComment
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The mystery deepens, my fellow 57er enthusiasts
I've been pouring over some more minis, looking at KVKs, and noticed something odd.
The top row of this image is all S&L minis with what I would expect in S&L KVK...round top 3, and rounded 9. The bottom row are all Deumer style pins, flat top 3 and elongated 9, with more distinct pebbling.
The 2 in the middle, are S&L stacks...with seemingly Deumer style KVKs! So, the question is, how did this occur? Did S&L acquire Deumer's surplus stocks when Deumer stopped making minis? When did Deumer cease production of 57ers? Or am I mistaken about the S&L vs Deumer attributes of the KVKs?
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Hi Brig,
This is turning into a very fun thread! Thanks for all of your hard work, and excellent compare images.
I noticed that the middle left KVK2 mini has pebbling in the date area, while neither the S&L or Deumer appear to have this feature. Also, the bottom loop of the "3" in the right center KVK2 mini is not as closed as the others. I am going to get out my minis, and the magnifying glass for some inspection!
It is quite possible S&L purchased or was given excess Deumer stock. I believe Deumer ceased 57er production in the late 60's.
Best,
Jeff
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