Early Minesweeper Badge

[Brig]

My latest...just came in today's mail. Didn't cost me a cent...paid for with eBay bucks! If you're a US eBay user and not enrolled in eBay bucks (2% credit of purchases quarterly), I suggest you look into it!

Solid hinge, nice example. Am I correct that it's S&L?

[Nigel N]

Nice minesweeper Brig!!
An S&L piece IMO, the Deumer is pretty rare, and has a slightly different design, on the S&L the top parts of the waterspout all have the ends pretty much squared off, on the Deumer, they all come to points if I remember correctly??
Differences in finish too, hopefully Rudiger will add more!!!
-Nigel

[Skyhawk]

Hi Brig,

Be careful or you will catch the 57er KM affliction too!

Looks to me to be an S&L (as Nigel stated) mid production badge with the solid hinge block and tapering pin. Would be a match as far as age to the Destroyer badge in the 57er KM thread I have floating around. The 57er KM "big guns" posted their badges in this thread so it is a good reference point.

Nice badge, and thanks for showing!

Best,

Jeff

[Brig]

Hi Brig,

Be careful or you will catch the 57er KM affliction too!


Jeff

I realized I did catch the 57er affliction a bit when I placed this in the case and realized I've been averaging about 2 badges a month for a few months now

[Steve 5]

Brig, indeed Jeff is correct, mid production piece, not the earliest, that would have a different pin and hinge assembly......see below for the earliest of St u L rear hardware, this type of set up was used on most war badges 1957-1959/60........
Yours is still a desirable great looking piece and a perfect introduction to the KM bug !
Prost ! Steve.

[Brig]

I thought we were using 'Earliest' for the type you show, 'Early-mid' for solid block with the tapering pin, and 'mid-late' for the crimped block with wider c-clasp

As long as it's solid block and narrow c-clasp, I'm happy

[Skyhawk]

Hi Brig,

The terminology varies a little based upon the collector, so here is what I use for S&L pieces:

Very Early (1957/8ish): Solid Block, 1st style thin pin, sometimes the TR era style wide pin is found (mainly on Spanges and EK1).

Early (into early 60's): Solid Block, 1st style thin pin. Same hinge as very early pieces with thin pin. Narrow clasp.

Mid (as in mid 60's): Solid Block, 2nd style tapering pin, different hinge than early pieces. Narrow clasp. Hinge pin can have can have large round head. There is a late mid (transitional) block which has a crimped appearance, however it is not solid. I have seen this block with both the 2nd and 3rd style tapering pin.

Late (after 1968): Open block, 3rd style tapering pin, quality is usually much less than the very early/early/mid pieces. Still collectable in my opinion, especially in the super hard to find 57er pieces. Hinge pin often has large round head. Wide clasp.

Modern: Basically, a lot of the crapolla from the mid 80's onward. Exception....not referring to the EK/RK series.


Several items confuse the situation:

1) S&L did not make clean breaks between production eras. You can find earlier hardware on later badges for instance. I have a Late badge with Mid hardware as an example.

2) The timeline/categories can vary a little depending on whether you are referring to badges, spanges, EK1, etc.

3) Medals are a whole different story........


Each collector has to decide what they like to collect. For me, I try for solid block pieces, either very early/early or mid. I do have a few late pieces. Probably the only modern pieces I would collect would be out of the EK/RK series.

This is just my 57er S&L guide, and the more experienced 57er guys please feel free to offer corrections.

I hope this helps, a little.

Best,

Jeff

[Nigel N]

Hi Jeff, I wouldn't disagree with you on what's early, mid etc. as you said, I think we all have our own take on that, with probably only minor differences!!
Only thing I would say, is most S&L pinbacks use the same solid hingeblock from 58 to 68, a couple of exceptions, earliest DK etc.
-Nigel

[Skyhawk]

Hi Nigel,

OK, agreed on the hinge block. Must be the different pin styles which gives it a somewhat different look. In a separate thread maybe a discussion could be started to reach a terminology/timeline "standard" for our 57er WAF group. It would be great if we are all used "like" terminology when describing pieces. Possibly show an image of each block, pin style, etc. along with a description and probable timeline. There will always be some exceptions and conflicting pieces, however an overall standard. This would be very helpful as new members join our area. Has this been done before in a single thread?

Best,

Jeff

[Nigel N]

Hi Jeff!
I think we did a thread on hinges, catches and pins some years ago, but I reckon we are due for an update!!
We also had a discussion way back, on what dates you would assign to "very early" "early" "mid" etc. and while we were all roughly in the same ballpark, I don't think anyone of us agreed exactly!!!
-Nigel

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

Here was a proposed timeline from about a year and half ago which is similar to Jeff's but differs a bit on the definition of when "Late" begins. I'm not saying this one is any better, but I do think it's a great topic for discussion and it could be a really useful exercise if a working consensus eventually emerges.


"Very early", 1957-1960: round-wire main pin, solid block hinge, narrow flat-wire catch

"Early", 1960-1963: tapered slender wide pin, solid block hinge, narrow flat-wire catch

"Early to Mid", 1963-1968: same as above but double-wire catch +/- dome head hinge pin

"Mid", 1968-1970: tapered slender wide pin, hollow block hinge, wide flat-wire catch, +/- dome head hinge pin

"Late", >1970: wider inverse-taper pin, hollow block hinge, wide flat-wire catch, +/- dome head hinge pin

Having said that, the boundaries between categories blur, especially the "Early to Mid" category.

(Brig's Minesweeper would be "early" by this scheme.)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

(Brig's Minesweeper would be "early" by this scheme.)

Brig's "early" MS would go between the first two in this illustration.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Not a '57 but this National Sport Badge shows a mix of the "late" type of wide pin with the "early" narrow catch and solid block hinge. This was purchased directly from S&L by my Dad in 1965 (previously posted here). Actually, this fits nicely into Jeff's definition of "Mid". I'm starting to like his system more and more but we need to fit the double catch in there somewhere...

[Brig]

Never seen a double catch before now

Great comparison images, though!

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

It's pretty late so I probably shouldn't be posting but how's this for an amended version? In this scheme the "Early to Mid" category is characterized by the double catch. Anything with the hollow hinge is called "Late".


"Very early", 1957-1960: round-wire main pin, solid block hinge, narrow flat-wire catch

"Early", 1960-1963: narrow-topped main pin, solid block hinge, narrow flat-wire catch

"Early to Mid" (transitional), 1963-1965: narrow-topped or wide-topped main pin, solid block hinge, double-wire catch, +/- dome head hinge pin

"Mid", 1965-1968: wide-topped main pin, solid block hinge, narrow flat-wire catch, +/- dome head hinge pin

"Late", >1968: wide-topped main pin, hollow hinge, wide flat-wire catch, +/- dome head hinge pin

Of course, all this is proposed only for S&L badges.

Best regards,
---Norm