57 Knights Cross

[Stu W]

Hi Guys,

I've been tasked with locating a top condition early 57 RK for an acquaintance. I was never schooled in the 57 series awards so would appreciate some basics, the Coles Notes version if you will.

So, which would you choose and why?

Any info will be appreciated no matter how trivial as it will save me time and is all good learning.

Regards,
Stu
PS: Yes, I will be searching and reading old threads too!

[Skyhawk]

Hi Stu,

There are many much more knowledge than I, so I will give you my quick two cents, for what it is worth. I had the same requirement in 2013 and I decided to purchase a B frame, 1st pattern core RK produced by StuL. I wanted a cased example with minty ribbon as well, so that added to the cost. Not knowing what funds you will be purchasing with, I would say in USD that the cost for this type of '57 RK cased can exceed $1K. Still much better than the $10K plus for a TR example. I will post a couple images of the RK I purchased for reference.

Best,

Jeff

[Stu W]

Hello Jeff,

That you very much for the information and the photos. That's nothing short of a stunning example and just the sort of condition I am looking for although my buyer wishes his uncased. Was that an Estand purchase or is there a particular dealer/source that the 57 enthusiasts monitor?

Regards,
Stu

[Skyhawk]

Hi Stu,

The '57 RK was purchased from a WAF member, however it had not been listed on E-Stand. The ones of this vintage do not seem to appear on the dealer sites I watch too often. I can only remember seeing one, maybe two in all of 2013. The later produced pieces are a little more available and easier on the wallet. It really comes down to whether you are looking for a first or second pattern core, and which frame. I have seen very nice pieces with either core type, and a variety of frame types. The budget always is a driving factor as you well know. I know others will post tonight and tomorrow, so within a days time you should have a pretty good idea/education.

Best,

Jeff

[Unfront]

Keep in mind that both "First Pattern" and "Second Pattern" cores were manufactured from the outset. It's just that at some point, St&L stopped producing RKs with the first pattern core. (I believe it was because the die for the first pattern core wore down.... but that is for another thread.)

Whether you go for a first or second pattern core RK, you will want a magnetic core. (Come to think of it, I have never heard of a nonmagnetic first pattern core.) Either way, you'd best be served by running a few photos past this group for review. It seems as if the popularity of 57er RKs has exploded in the past couple of years and a lot of people are after one as an "inexpensive alternative" to a wartime RK while also being a unique part of the storyline of the Iron Cross. Keep in mind that there are some convincing fakes out there now. As with much in this hobby, patience will be your friend. The right one will come up.

[George L]

All depends on your budget, but if you can swing it, go for it a 1st pattern core RK, or at least an early, nice quality 2nd pattern core job. There might be examples for sale at the SOS show next week if you're going.

Upfront, when you said that both were made from the outset, how is that possible if there's been no "B" type S&L frames, at least that I know of, with a second pattern core? Those frame dies were the earliest having survived the war and then used again and the oak leaves are smaller so they should fit.

[Stu W]

All depends on your budget ...

Fortunately my buyer has deep pockets. I won't spend stupid money but am willing to pay top dollar for top quality.

This info you folks are providing is very helpful. Thank you.

Regards,
Stu

[Unfront]

I'll have to dig it IP, but right here in the '67er forum, there was a scan of a catalog where both were available in '58.

[Tom B]

The SOS is a great show (the best). If your going, my bet is you'll find one there ! Tom

[Stu W]

The SOS is a great show (the best). If your going, my bet is you'll find one there ! Tom

Hi Tom,

Alas, I am not. My funds are allocated to the San Francisco Token Kai this year.

Regards,
Stu

[Steve 5]

Here is one of my examples of a slightly later (early 1960's)"C" framed second core (magnetic) RK with Oaks and Swords, both marked "800" for silver content.....no box. I would imagine this to be worth around £350+ ($500+)...........look for known flaws, for example the the dent row, knee flaw etc....do your homework is the key, there are plenty here on this section of the forum along with good advice.
Prost ! Steve.

[Steve 5]

more...................

[Steve 5]

Here are this crosses flaws, for reference............top, "dent row", bottom "knee flaw"..........there can be a combination of flaws.
Prost ! Steve.

[Tom B]

Hi Tom,

Alas, I am not. My funds are allocated to the San Francisco Token Kai this year.

Regards,
Stu

Sorry you can't make the SOS....maybe next year? Tom

[Unfront]

Unfront, when you said that both were made from the outset, how is that possible if there's been no "B" type S&L frames, at least that I know of, with a second pattern core? Those frame dies were the earliest having survived the war and then used again and the oak leaves are smaller so they should fit.

George, Here is the link to the section of a thread about period ads for 57er's. This link will take you directly to page 2 where an ad from 1958 is shown with both styles of core.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=1958&page=2
The photo in question is here:


I too was under the impression that the second pattern core came out later than the first, but now I have changed my mind and subscribe to the theory that both core types were manufactured from the outset. However, it appears that the die for the "first pattern" core wore down. Therefore, I believe that St&L stopped using it and continued manufacturing RK's with the dies for the second pattern core. I could be wrong, but it just makes sense. Here is a photo of my C Frame First pattern Core cross that I recently acquired from Karsten. Notice how the quality of the core is wearing down (especially around the date):



Here is a photo of the same cross next to a second pattern core from what I believe to be around the same time period. Notice how clean the second pattern core is:



Stu, I think that you would probably want a first pattern core, but don't discount a nice early second pattern core RK. Good luck with your search!