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    #16
    Thick round needle: (+/- 1,46mm) 195?-1959 = Extreme early and very early
    Thin round needle: (+/- 1,66mm) 1960-1965 = early
    Holiday stress? Better the other way round


    I was able to measure my pieces with round needle, thought i have the thin versions but to my surprise the following came out:

    - all 3 minesweepers = 1,66mm
    - HSF = 1,66mm
    - CAB = 1,66mm
    - destroyer = 1,45mm
    - PAB 25 = 1,46mm
    - PAB 50 = 1,46mm
    - BWB = 1,8mm !!!
    - BWB = 1,66mm

    Here´s an overview pic from all needles that are thick, think you can see to what piece it belongs. The 1,8mm BWB is the one with glossy finish. Both BWB needles have no toolmark !

    I am really happy that some of my KM pieces have the thick needle
    Attached Files

    Comment

      #17
      Hi Guys,

      Reading this thread with great interest.

      Did you guys actually measure the pin´s as shown on this image, or in different ways also?

      If I take this measurement as an example, The difference between the two awards measurements is 0,02 mm or 2/100 of an millimeter?
      I can´t help thinking that if you measure as shown, you only need a pin being 2/100 of a mm bended on a stretch of 1"(3cm) to become inaccurate? a tiny scratch or a slightly different bend on the top of the pin would IMO also make a difference in the measurement?

      KR

      Karsten
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Karsten S; 04-30-2012, 08:06 AM.

      "Try not to become a man of success but rather try to become a man of value."

      Comment

        #18
        I can't speak for the other gentlemen, but I spent 15 years using fine measuring instruments, both physical and optical, measuring items to .00005 or in laymens terms 50/millionths of an inch.

        I took five individual measurements up at various positions on the needle to get a representative sample and average to insure accuracy.

        Comment

          #19
          Originally posted by Mike Yokum View Post
          I can't speak for the other gentlemen, but I spent 15 years using fine measuring instruments, both physical and optical, measuring items to .00005 or in laymens terms 50/millionths of an inch.

          I took five individual measurements up at various positions on the needle to get a representative sample and average to insure accuracy.
          I think you misunderstand me.
          I am not questioning you ability to measure, but more the uncertainty in the material , if it has been subjected to any of the above things as I mention. Not to think how precise the machinery making the needle needs to have and the variety in the finish from each production.

          KR

          Karsten

          "Try not to become a man of success but rather try to become a man of value."

          Comment

            #20
            I'm afraid i cant add much to this interesting thread as EK's did'nt seem to have needle pins, so i only have a couple of badges with this style of pin!
            I think the variations Karsten mentioned would account for the slight differences in some pins, but it does appear that there is a bigger difference between some pins, that cant be explained so easily??
            If a definite link exists between the thickness of the pin, and the age of the piece, then we're in buisness!!
            -Nigel
            sigpic 57ers...."The Devil Is In The Detail"

            Comment

              #21
              Originally posted by Karsten S View Post
              Hi Guys,

              If I take this measurement as an example, The difference between the two awards measurements is 0,02 mm or 2/100 of an millimeter?
              I can´t help thinking that if you measure as shown, you only need a pin being 2/100 of a mm bended on a stretch of 1"(3cm) to become inaccurate? a tiny scratch or a slightly different bend on the top of the pin would IMO also make a difference in the measurement?

              KR

              Karsten
              Originally posted by LuckyLuudje View Post
              ...
              I measured 10 thick needles and 10 thin needles remember that small differences exists, like the ammount of finish applied).
              Thick: between 1,64mm -1,70mm.
              Thin: between 1,45mm-1,48mm.
              Hi Karsten,

              You're quite right that the differences between the two examples that you quoted are not significant and these would be considered the same pin stock.

              Luud's point was that there were two separate clusters of measurements with no overlap between the two groups, thus indicating two different round-wire pin stocks. The difference between them was more like 2/10 of a mm (not 2/100 which indeed would have been insignificant).

              The thing that's not yet clear in my mind is, aside from the different pin stock, what exactly about these badges suggests one group is earlier than the other rather than concurrent. I gather it's something about the finish but so far that's clear from this thread?

              Best regards,
              ---Norm

              Comment

                #22
                Originally posted by Karsten S View Post
                I think you misunderstand me.
                I am not questioning you ability to measure, but more the uncertainty in the material , if it has been subjected to any of the above things as I mention. Not to think how precise the machinery making the needle needs to have and the variety in the finish from each production.

                KR

                Karsten
                Hi Karsten,

                The way to overcome normal variations in material, which there always are, is to take multiple sample measurements and then take an average. If extreme high or low measurements are found, then the number of sample measurements is increased to insure overall accuracy. High and low anomalies caused by any number of things can be thrown out and an average measurement can then be taken. This is a common method used in manufacturing.

                Very well said Norm. There are indeed two distinct groups of pin sizes, without overlap indicating usage of two different stocks.
                Last edited by Mike Yokum; 04-30-2012, 09:22 AM.

                Comment

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                  The thing that's not yet clear in my mind is, aside from the different pin stock, what exactly about these badges suggests one group is earlier than the other rather than concurrent. I gather it's something about the finish but so far that's clear from this thread?

                  Best regards,
                  ---Norm
                  Hi Norm,

                  Was my answer in post 14 not clear enough? Perhaps I don't yet understand your question.

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                    Hi Karsten,

                    You're quite right that the differences between the two examples that you quoted are not significant and these would be considered the same pin stock.

                    Luud's point was that there were two separate clusters of measurements with no overlap between the two groups, thus indicating two different round-wire pin stocks. The difference between them was more like 2/10 of a mm (not 2/100 which indeed would have been insignificant).
                    Ahh, I was looking at the images the wrong way. I see the difference is approx 2/10 of an mm. Interesting, I will have to check my pins as well.

                    I don´t know if you mean the same Norm, but for me to make sense of this, then there has to be another feature that would be present every time you find a "narrow round pin" and another feature when it is "wide round pin"?
                    If we have this, then it is for sure a great observation.

                    Else it would just be a variation of pins which could be from same period, but just different productions, or did I not read closely enough?

                    Did someone compare a solid rivetted St&L para with a hollowed rivetted badge that both have the round pins?

                    KR

                    Karsten

                    "Try not to become a man of success but rather try to become a man of value."

                    Comment

                      #25
                      It should'nt be forgotten, that from what we have seen in the past, its very possible that S&L operated a "bin" system, so lots of pins from a batch would be placed in a bin and then the workers would pick one out when they needed one, but when the bin was getting low, it would probably be topped up with a new batch, meaning those at the very bottom of the pile could sit there for a long time before getting used??
                      I'm not 100% if thats what happened, but it would explain why we find different mixes/ages of hardware and parts on some medals and badges!!
                      The majority of pieces probably had hardware from the same period, but its a possible explanation for a few oddities!!
                      -Nigel
                      sigpic 57ers...."The Devil Is In The Detail"

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post
                        It should'nt be forgotten, that from what we have seen in the past, its very possible that S&L operated a "bin" system, so lots of pins from a batch would be placed in a bin and then the workers would pick one out when they needed one, but when the bin was getting low, it would probably be topped up with a new batch, meaning those at the very bottom of the pile could sit there for a long time before getting used??
                        I'm not 100% if thats what happened, but it would explain why we find different mixes/ages of hardware and parts on some medals and badges!!
                        The majority of pieces probably had hardware from the same period, but its a possible explanation for a few oddities!!
                        -Nigel
                        Another theory is that these bin´s with round pin´s are all wartime leftovers and when these slipped up, they started producing the flat version.

                        No matter what, observations like this are important, if we want´s to learn more, even if they leads into nothing.

                        KR

                        Karsten

                        "Try not to become a man of success but rather try to become a man of value."

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Yes, Karsten, thats possible!
                          We often talk about wartime leftovers, would'nt it be great to know just what these makers did actually have left over from the war years???
                          -Nigel
                          sigpic 57ers...."The Devil Is In The Detail"

                          Comment

                            #28
                            Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post
                            Yes, Karsten, thats possible!
                            We often talk about wartime leftovers, would'nt it be great to know just what these makers did actually have left over from the war years???
                            -Nigel
                            We know for a fact that the dimpled pin (flat toolmark) are wartime, and we are divided with the scraped pin, if this is very late wartime or postwar produced.

                            KR

                            Karsten

                            "Try not to become a man of success but rather try to become a man of value."

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Mike Yokum View Post
                              Hi Norm,

                              Was my answer in post 14 not clear enough? Perhaps I don't yet understand your question.


                              Originally posted by Mike Yokum View Post
                              Hi Norm,

                              Good question. Perhaps a point or two was lost.

                              So far, both Luud and I have found that the thicker pinned badges have earlier characteristics in crispness of strike and finish quality. As I mentioned, the only exception in my collection is my Golden BKA which has the best finish I have ever seen on a 57er, yet a thinner pin with absolutely no tool mark.

                              Also, the thicker needles seem to have the longer tool mark as a much more common, but not exclusive trait.

                              This is a work in progress, so no really firm conclusions have been drawn. Time will tell if this is a genuine dating tool or benchmark.

                              Does that shed a little light? I'm sorry if these points weren't made clear earlier.
                              Hi Mike,

                              Thanks, I understand your helpful description. It's just that I haven't yet seen good illustrations of this difference in crispness and finish that may be related to the thicker pin stock. Like Karsten I was hoping for some other correlations as well to firm the theory up a bit, like the association with rivet types, etc.

                              But I understand this is a work in process and I just have to be more patient, and we'll see what evolves?

                              Best regards,
                              ---Norm

                              Comment

                                #30
                                I think we will all have to be patient Norm!!!
                                As far as i know, no in-depth study like this, has ever been done on 57 pieces, so we are pretty much starting from scratch, it will take time, theres a lot to pick thru!
                                Unlike wartime, where a lot has been written, and many puzzles solved, non of that has been done with 57ers, we are learning as we go along, and that for me, and i know most of the guys, is the exciting part!!
                                There'll be lots of head scratching to come, and maybe Mike will have to knock a few heads together too (mine included!) but i think at the end of it, we'll have a good knowledge of makers, pieces, timelines etc.!!
                                -Nigel
                                sigpic 57ers...."The Devil Is In The Detail"

                                Comment

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