My S&L Round Needle Theory Reference Thread

[LuckyLuudje]

Hi guys,

I have a holiday and will leave in a few hours but I made these pictures last week so it won't take me too long to start the threat. I only have my smartphone with me but I won't be online too much. Otherwise my wife will kill me. And because I planned to post something special at my my 2000th post, I have to use my last replies wisely.

The round needle is by many seen as the earliest needle. But is that true?
I will show my thoughts about the S&L round needle in this thread.

A while ago I checked all my S&L badges and put them in order in time only looking at the die characteristics, the used finish and the way it has been finished. When I looked at the hardware it showed to me that many different needles must have been used simultaniously.

I also found a difference between the round needles on badges from on the left (the earlier S&L's) compared to the round needles on the right (a period where many different needles have been used).

Before I go on I will first try to make clear what method in dating 57's from S&L I use based on what I have seen sofar.
So it might not be 100% accurate because it is still working in progress as I, like most others, still learn every day :
1- Extreme early period 195?-1957. S&L's experimenting phase (like prototypes). Here you will find for example the S&L's made from wartime dies that have been denazified.
2- Very early period: 1958-1959: leftover harware used.
3- Early period: 1960-1965: leftover hardware has been used up and new needles were used.
4- Mid/late/modern: After 1965. Here S&L started with using the open hinge and wide catch and ended with pretty ugly casted things

I measured 10 thick needles and 10 thin needles remember that small differences exists, like the ammount of finish applied).
Thick: between 1,64mm -1,70mm.
Thin: between 1,45mm-1,48mm.

Because a picture sais more than 1000 words, I made a few pictures to illustrate the difference in thickness.

[LuckyLuudje]

In the "VERY EARLY" period the thick needle has been used and I also included another needle that IMO is very early but rarely used. I am sofar only aware of 3 57's.

All my thick needles have distinguish toolmarks shown on this picture.
But I am not sure if all the thick needles have these toolmarks.

I am not sure when these needles are made, but I suspect that they could be leftovers from earlier days.
I hope that someone that is more knowledged than me about wartime S&L's will jump in to give his thoughts about these needles to find when they have been made (I think Tom might know more about that).

Here a picture of the toolmarks.
Both look to me that they are used simultaniously but the one with the smallmark looks to have been used in only the earlier part of the "very early" stage while the one with the long scratchmarks looks to me that it has been used from the beginning of the 57's till the end of the "very early" period.

[LuckyLuudje]

In the early period the thin round needle has been used simultaniously with many other different needle.
There is a difference in the time wich needle has been used the more often and they are IMO overlapping but it will go to far for now to go into that and will only stick with the round needle.

And some collectors will notice that some of these needles also have been used in the "mid/late" period as well.

The thin round needle has IMO been used till short before the end of the "early" period and although they also have some toolmarks, they are not as pronounced as on the thick needles.
Here an overvieuw of the needles that I have from the "early" period.

[LuckyLuudje]

Bags are packed, so we are leaving.

But it will be interesting to see if your badges match with my theory.
And what your thoughts are about it.

I bet many of you guys will be busy with your measuring tools today And I still have 8 replies left

[Mike Yokum]

Thank you Luud for your passion for this hobby and it's history. This sort of detailed study and forensic approach is an indicator as to how much you love this stuff. It also shows there is a lot to learn and how it can be a fun journey to learning and understanding.

Having discussed this theory with you at length in private, I'm in agreement that there is validity to the points you make. It is indeed a work in progress and more study is needed. This thread is very good way to get all in our circle measuring, studying and sharing their results. Through this process, hopefully we can nail down a solid timeline. Again, we may prove or we may disprove the theory. Time will tell.

For this study to be a success, I'm asking that all WAF participants that are able take measurements on their badges with early round needle do so and post the results in this thread. As Luud states, pay attention to the "scrape" or tool mark in the area indicated in Luud's photo's as this could help prove or disprove some aspects of the theory. As you share your measurements, indicate what type of tool mark is displayed on each size. There should be two basic sizes of needles: 1.46mm and 1.68mm. As in any material there is variation, the sizes I just shared would be an average size that will flucuate approximately +/-.2mm.

I'm at work right now, but later today I will post measurements taken last week to show that there appears to be a correlation to needle sizes and date in MOST cases.

Let's have some fun with this gents and hopefully add to what I consider to be a significant discovery along the way!

Luud, you and Mrs. LuckyLuudje have a wonderful holiday!

[Nigel N]

Hi Luud!!! Great thread, this is what i like to see....really getting into the small details, fascinating stuff!!!
Like Mike, i already knew of your thoughts on these pins, and i think you really are onto something here Luud, and, its something thats not been studied before as far as i know??
I did'nt have a digital measuring caliper, but i have one now, and a week off work next week with nothing much planned......
So that will give me time to make a start measuring various S&L pins!!!
Could be some very important info to be learned here i reckon!!!
I know Tom has done some ground-breaking work on the wartime vs postwar S&L pins, hopefully he will jump in here too and add his thoughts!!
Have a good holiday Luud!!!!!!!
-Nigel

[Seewolf]

Already holiday .... and on vacation
Enjoy these days, Luud


Seems you talked with many of us via mail about your thoughts and i am here really with you.
it is fascinating because we always thought "round needle = very early" and that was enough for everyone of us. So it seems we really have to go much deeper

What i noticed on your earliest pieces with thick round needle is that the needle has the same colour as the reverse of the badge. One time black and one time golden....a feature that i didn´t saw on our regular very early pieces....always silver needle.

I hope to have some time at the weekend to measure my round needles. I´ll post then the results here. And i´ll have a look what kind of toolmark they have.....curious what´s coming out there

So be careful with your next postings because we are all looking forward to your 2000th post.....curious what a special posting it will be

Happy holiday, Luud

[Mike Yokum]

I'm adding this thread to our Reference Thread Section

Here are measurements taken on my pieces with very early/early round needle...

First up -

Golden BKA - Small pin/No tool mark present

LW Flak - Small pin/Long tool mark

Para - Large pin/Long tool mark

Pilot - Large pin/Long tool mark

[Mike Yokum]

Next up...

LGAB - Large pin/Long tool mark

IAB - Large pin/Medium tool mark

GWB - Large pin/Short tool mark

SWB - Large pin/Short tool mark

[Mike Yokum]

Last one...

BWB - Large pin/No tool mark present even under thin paint

[Mike Yokum]

What i noticed on your earliest pieces with thick round needle is that the needle has the same colour as the reverse of the badge. One time black and one time golden....a feature that i didn´t saw on our regular very early pieces....always silver needle.

Excellent observation Rüdiger! It holds true with my badges as well.

To this point I find one major exception to the theory and that is the Golden BKA which has a smaller needle, no tool mark and the very finest finish of ANY of my badges. In any, even controlled process there are ALWAYS exceptions. I will chalk this one up to a manufacturing anomaly until we learn more.

The WB's are also somewhat of an exception as they have large needles yet smaller tool marks.

More to learn!

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

This is a very interesting thread, albeit confusing to me so far.

So, from Mike and Luud's postings I gather that a variety of tool marks are seen on both thick and thin pins? Is there any pattern emerging so far as to which sort of badges bear thick vs. thin pins or does it seem random?

Best regards,
---Norm

[xmember]

This is great guys. Thanks for starting this Luud - even though you are not around. Anyway, I will have to participate on this project upon my return from vacation next week.
Regards
Rudy

[Mike Yokum]

Hi Norm,

Good question. Perhaps a point or two was lost.

So far, both Luud and I have found that the thicker pinned badges have earlier characteristics in crispness of strike and finish quality. As I mentioned, the only exception in my collection is my Golden BKA which has the best finish I have ever seen on a 57er, yet a thinner pin with absolutely no tool mark.

Also, the thicker needles seem to have the longer tool mark as a much more common, but not exclusive trait.

This is a work in progress, so no really firm conclusions have been drawn. Time will tell if this is a genuine dating tool or benchmark.

Does that shed a little light? I'm sorry if these points weren't made clear earlier.

[LuckyLuudje]

I will enjoy my holiday, but it is only a short one (1 week).
So just a short reply, tomorrow will be a very active mountainbike day in the hills.
I know what siome of you might think, because I also has other ideas to start our holiday

I can't check now to see if all the thick needles have the same finish as the bedge and the thin needles don't. That will have to wait for now, but that would be interesting to find out.

It might be a litlle confusing because I was under time pressure when I wrote it, I will give a summary of what I think:

Thick round needle: (+/- 1,46mm) 195?-1959 = Extreme early and very early
Thin round needle: (+/- 1,66mm) 1960-1965 = early

The thick needles have 2 types of distinguised toolmarks.
And it looks to me that they suddenly didn't use the thick needles anymore and started to using many different needles like the thin needle