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**LuckyLuudje** · 07-21-2010, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by mbizy View Post

I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone said definitively that the hardware came from S&L. Words like "apparently" and "I think" were used because it is not an absolute truth yet.

English is my 4th language, so I might mistunderstood it.
I will give 3 quotes before my reply that I might have misinterpretated:
1- "but its becoming obvious that S & L provided parts, if not entire badges to other makers."
2- "i think the use of S & L hardware by other makers is only just becoming known"
3- "Interesting that Deumer apparently used S&L supplied hardware."

**Mike Yokum** · 07-21-2010, 07:08 PM

Why the antogonistic tone Luud? Lately, you seem to single my comments and threads out for correction. Are my opinions, right or wrong, not as valuable as others?

**LuckyLuudje** · 07-21-2010, 07:52 PM

I only asked and I quote:
"I am not convinced that the hardware is made by S&L.
Is there proof for the statement that the hardware is MADE by S&L and provided others?
Or is it just an opinion?".

All the times that I give an opinion and it is not what some people WANT to hear, it is ignored or get reactions like I am antogonistic (whatever it means).........pffff......waste of my time.
It looks like I better reply to the "look what I have now" threads and put some tumbs up without any further comments.

**Nigel N** · 07-22-2010, 02:04 AM

Firstly, lets try and keep things friendly, and have a sensible discussion, i dont want to see us all falling out, thats not what the 57 section is all about i hope!
On to the S & L hardware topic.....
Luud, am i understanding you correctly, that you think that S & L did'nt make their own hardware, but bought it from another (unknown) maker???
It has to be considered as a possibility, but to back up your theory you need to provide evidence, proof, and i dont see any???
If you look back to wartime production, its well known that S & L provided many EK makers with frames etc. as an EK collector, you know this!
If you look at 57 production, you can see Assmann using S & L frames on their EK's, Souval using S & L frames and (imo) hardware etc.
If you look at S & L's production thru the years, you can follow a logical timeline... coke bottle pin, tapered pin.....solid hingeblock, open hingeblock.....thin catch, thick catch....magnetic cores,non-magnetic cores...etc. etc.
It all seems to add up to me, and i think most 57 collectors, i have no problem at all considering any other theorys, just like yours, but please provide evidence to backup your claim...was there even a producer around in the 57 period, who just made hardware??? Are there any medals/badges out there by S & L that definitely use another makers hardware???
Until there is positve proof to the contrary, i think we must assume that S & L produced their own hardware!!
-Nigel

**LuckyLuudje** · 07-22-2010, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

Luud, am i understanding you correctly, that you think that S & L did'nt make their own hardware, but bought it from another (unknown) maker???
It has to be considered as a possibility, but to back up your theory you need to provide evidence, proof, and i dont see any???

My reply was clearly towards "wartime" herstellers.
If you want proof for this, you don't have to search further than the WAF.
There are somewhere reciepts from herstellers posted wich show that they bought them.
If you want proof from me, I can only post (when I descide to become an A-member member again) a few hundred crosses from different marked ek's that share identical hardware.

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

If you look back to wartime production, its well known that S & L provided many EK makers with frames etc. as an EK collector, you know this!

Before going to deep in this isseu, I do make a difference between supplied parts like frames or supplied dies.
If other herstellers used the "bought" dies, I don't speak from S&L parts anymore.

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

If you look at 57 production, you can see Assmann using S & L frames on their EK's, Souval using S & L frames and (imo) hardware etc.
If you look at S & L's production thru the years, you can follow a logical timeline... coke bottle pin, tapered pin.....solid hingeblock, open hingeblock.....thin catch, thick catch....magnetic cores,non-magnetic cores...etc. etc.
It all seems to add up to me, and i think most 57 collectors, i have no problem at all considering any other theorys, just like yours, but please provide evidence to backup your claim...was there even a producer around in the 57 period, who just made hardware??? Are there any medals/badges out there by S & L that definitely use another makers hardware???
Until there is positve proof to the contrary, i think we must assume that S & L produced their own hardware!!
-Nigel

Because I assume that due to miscommunication you didn't know that I was talking about wartime made items, the is not relevant.
But I for sure wouldn't have writen the above.

**Nigel N** · 07-22-2010, 06:38 AM

Hi Luud, sorry if there is some mis-communication here, but i've read your replies again....

Originally posted by LuckyLuudje View Post

I am not convinced that the hardware is made by S&L.
Is there proof for the statement that the hardware is MADE by S&L and provided others? Or is it just an opinion?

And it seems that you are referring to the hardware on Mike's WB's???
Just wanted to be clear, are you ok with calling this pin/catch & hinge style S & L, or do you think its by another maker who sold to S & L??
-Nigel

**LuckyLuudje** · 07-22-2010, 07:26 AM

Before I am dragged in some kind of a personal wordgame with statements that I never said and than suddenly have to proof! To avoid further accusations I will only reply once again on my own reply with my motivation to make clear why I said it and Y'all do whatever you want with it.

Originally posted by LuckyLuudje View Post

I agree with Stijn and think that the nicer wb is a Deumer and it is a nice badge

I doesn't happen often that I find the Deumers more beautifull than the S&L's.

I like the badge and I mostly agree with Stijns interesting thread.
And the badge is IMO more beautifull than the other badge wich is IMO made by S&L.
And most of the times I prefer S&L's because I mostly find S&L's attractive than the badges wich are IMO made by Deumer.

Originally posted by LuckyLuudje View Post

I am not convinced that the hardware is made by S&L.
Is there proof for the statement that the hardware is MADE by S&L and provided others? Or is it just an opinion?

I try to keep my mind very open in the hope to find out the truth.
After reading a few quotes it looked to me that it was common knowledge that S&L made them. So I just asked it and I actually hoped that it would be the truth because it would answer a lot of my questions.
With the information what is available to me, I am not convinced yet that S&L made and supplied other with the hardware although I still consider it as a possibility.

Originally posted by LuckyLuudje View Post

My collecting field is actually wartime EK's and I see mainly starting collectors make the mistakes to determine the maker by it's hardware.
Don't forget that many herstellers didn't make the hardware themselves and ordered them from a third party.

I wrote this in case it is not proven yet that S&L was the maker and supplied others and just wrote it to show one of the motivations that not everything is black and white. And to show the possibility of a third maker because that happend a short time before making 57's also.
For me general opinions (no mather who's opinion) aren't facts. If something isn't proven yet we are still in a grey area.
If something is in a grey area, I on purpose use words like "IMO" to avoid exactly what happens here. I can't proof it or I just don't want to proof it.

I am out of this useless and time consuming discussion.

**Nigel N** · 07-22-2010, 07:49 AM

Well Luud, i was only asking your opinion on the hardware on these and indeed all S & L badges! To say this discussion is "useless and time consuming" is to disrespect our hobby, the forum, and the members here, as this is exactly the kind of discussion this forum was designed to encourage, and why we are all here in the first place!!
So, sorry Luud, but i think your attitude is all wrong!!!
-Nigel

**LuckyLuudje** · 07-22-2010, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

Well Luud, i was only asking your opinion on the hardware on these and indeed all S & L badges! To say this discussion is "useless and time consuming" is to disrespect our hobby, the forum, and the members here, as this is exactly the kind of discussion this forum was designed to encourage, and why we are all here in the first place!!
So, sorry Luud, but i think your attitude is all wrong!!!
-Nigel

I asked a question and get accused, words are put in my mouth that I haven't said and so on.
I have to defend my own reply!
This defending is IMO useless for the discussion about the item in question.
I spended about 1 hour of defending of my time only because I asked a question.
So yes, It is IMO time consuming and IMO useless.
And than you say that I have a wrong attitude and disrespect our (also my own) hobby, theForum and the members ???

Pfff.....now I am out of here before I get more insulted.

**Mike Yokum** · 07-22-2010, 08:40 AM

Luud,

You try to force us to defend our statements and replies and then get "insulted" when asked to defend or prove yours? I'm with Nigel, wrong attitude.

**Matthieu** · 07-22-2010, 10:20 AM

Come on you guys, whats with the hostile attitude here ... cant we get along and engage in a healthy discussion

???

**Seewolf** · 07-22-2010, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Matthieu View Post

Come on you guys, whats with the hostile attitude here ... cant we get along and engage in a healthy discussion

???

Yep, that´s what would like to see.

I understand what Luud wanted to say and IMO that is not a bad question. We all attribute that style of hardware to S&L because we find this setup at S&L pieces. Now it´s on a piece with typical Deumer characteristics......why isn´t it allowed to ask if that "S&L style" setup could be eventually be a purchased part?
Minds are free and we still do not know all about what happened in the early years.
This thread has become very agressive and if it goes on this way it could be that some good questions or thoughts are still not ask anymore

And that would be the death for our hobby and section - no questions - no discussion - no more learning - no enlighting

**Mike Yokum** · 07-22-2010, 06:31 PM

Mathijs, there is nothing I want more than for our little family than to live in peace and in an environment of mutual learning and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nigel wants the same.

Look at post 15 and you will see my true heart and motivation. Read posts 16 through 18 carefully and if you are unbiased you will see why this thread went the direction it did.

**Mike Yokum** · 07-23-2010, 05:13 PM

Hoping to make this thread HAPPY again...

I just realized ((

)) that along with the below pictured Deumer BWB in my collection I now have a complete set of S&L WB's and a complete set of Deumer WB's, if indeed the Gold and Silver WB's that started this thread are Deumer's!

Party at my house!!!

If you have any Deumer WB's in your collection, please post them here!!!

Attached Files

BWB%20COMP%201.jpg (140.4 KB, 73 views)

**Mike Yokum** · 07-24-2010, 12:20 PM

Here are a couple of family shots.

1st up, WB's attributed to S&L...

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