Oakleaves and Swords

[George L]

Uwe, I'm ok with dissenting opinions so long as everyone is civil about it.

[speedytop]

And that just from you, Darrell!

Unbelievable

Selten so gelacht

Kind Regards
Uwe

[Leroy]

Uwe,
Please show us the ones you were able to buy in 1990. It would be nice to know if S&L was still producing this quality at that time. Or did the store have older stock?
What does the "O" really stand for? So far, no one has been able to say for sure. Please tell us.
Could you buy the 1st model 1957 Ritterkreuz at that time, too? I would think those would have been around.
Could you show us a real, for sure, wartime set of O&S by S&L for comparison?
The sharing of information is a good thing.
Thanks,
Leroy



P.S. Please PM Gordon about the set in his book. I've said before here that I think he was incorrect, but I'm sure he would like some imput from you, too.

[speedytop]

Hi Leroy,

only an incomplete answer at this time.

I don't have a O&S by S&L, only a real, for sure, wartime Knights Cross by S&L, micro 800.

The silver 800 marked cross in my collection is identical with the cross in the first three posts, just with the lines on the reverse in 3 o'clock position, because they were not added later, they are a part of the die.

Both, the silvered and the silver version, have a small defect on the left sword grip, left side. It is a small continous line, approximately parallel to the bottom outer line.
You can see it on the picture in Post 3 allusively.
And there is, on my both pieces too, a line in 09:15 o'clock, you can see that on the picture in Post 2, direct left from the inner bow.

Both defects you can also find in the book from Dietrich März, The Knights Cross of the Iron Cross, page 393.

I can show later, with pictures I don't have now from the silvered version (I need daylight), both versions with the identical defects. There are some more shared conspicuities.

No, the store in Koblenz, the center for orders and decorations for the German Bundeswehr and the Bundespolizei, don't have greater stocks, and surely not older stocks.
See my comment, that I sometimes had to wait for the ordered pieces, several not listed in the catalogues. Nevertheless, nothing goes about good contacts!
S&L could have had stocks, but they are not very informative (this is a nice paraphrase!)
I really don't know exact, when I bought this pieces, it could be in 1985 or a little bit earlier, it could be in 1991 or later. I bougt there, in different years, some 1957 versions and some copies.

The "O" you can find in several variations, on different pieces from different makers in different time periods. Sometimes it is identifiable a help for the correct adjustment of the needle system; it could be a maker mark too, but I don't really believe in that.

Temporary summary:

Do you, or somebody else, think and believe, that Steinhauer & Lück Lüdenscheid, sold in 1985 or later original war time produced O&S for 15 Euro (silver) and 9 Euros (silvered)?

Regards
Uwe

[Leroy]

Do you, or somebody else, think and believe, that Steinhauer & Lück Lüdenscheid, sold in 1985 or later original war time produced O&S for 15 Euro (silver) and 9 Euros (silvered)?

Regards
Uwe

Uwe,
Thanks, first, for the interesting information. This is what this Forum is all about!

In answer to your question: NO, NO, NO! I absolutely do NOT think S&L would sell so cheaply original wartime pieces. I don't think ANYONE thinks that.
The confusion, I believe, is because we have all seen very nice postwar sets of O&S by S&L, BUT the best ones we have seen always seem to be the ones produced early on (in the 1957-63 time frame). The later ones we have seen (from the 70's and 80's) were pure JUNK. They have been poorly finished, poorly plated, and just UGLY, bearing almost no resemblance to the earlier sets. This is why your post of being able to buy nice quality ones so late was such a surprise. It is our experience that nice postwar sets (like the one which started this thread) are getting very hard to find and, like the first high quality versions of the 1957 form Ritterkreuz, are going up in price dramatically.

We all know that S&L, during the war, manufactured for private sale both the Oakleaves and the Oakleaves and Swords. Although some sets which are SUPPOSED TO BE wartime sets have been illustrated in some reference books, mistakes have been made and so now there is, for many, confusion as to what the wartime sets really looked like. The reference I made to Gordon Wiliamson's book was made because he shows in that book a set of what is, supposedly, wartime manufacture, but which is (to me, at least, and I believe many others) really a postwar set. You reference Dietrich's excellent book, but you must be aware that Dietrich (who is, by the way, a friend of mine and many others here on this Forum) did not describe in detail the wartime S&L sets of Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords because THEY WERE NOT THE OFFICIAL SETS and his book was devoted to what was actually awarded by the government. Many people (in fact, MOST people) will never be able to afford
an award set by Godet. A set made for private sale during the war would, however, be very collectible and also much more affordable, BUT FIRST we need to know exactly what they looked like, for sure, so we will know what we should be looking for. What were the die flaws and characteristics, how were they marked, what did the loop look like, how were the swords made and attached, etc., etc.? Of course, we also know that S&L made copies after the war. Is there a way, for sure, to know the copy from the real wartime piece?
Postwar Ritterkreuz can be detected. Can postwar Oakleaves and Oakleaves and swords be detected, too?

The small "O" is a mystery and, as you say, has been found on pieces other than just S&L. Was it really used during the war and, if so, what for? Examination of the location of the mark does not seem to be well-linked to pin location, loop location, rivet location or anything else and many people have tried, VERY HARD, to make sense of it, without real certainty.

Uwe, you are a long-time German collector, IN GERMANY, and you may have access to information or background "stories" that would be very helpful to all of us. I know that you think that non-Germans somehow believe that we know more than Germans when it comes to collecting German militaria. This, Uwe, is a MISUNDERSTANDING. Perhaps it is a language problem or something else. The truth is that there are many people here on this Forum (which includes members from all over the world, INCLUDING GERMANY) who try very hard and who study very hard to learn about these things. Some of the people here (including me!) can be hard to get along from time to time, some are hard to get along with ALL of the time, and some are just fine all of the time. Some are arrogant and some are not. Really, what we have in common is a real and serious interest in this material. Join in our discussions and participate. If you think we are wrong about something, TELL US, with real and solid information, what we have gotten wrong. Be specific and detailed. Remember that each and every one of us has "been put through the fire" here. Everyone has had their feelings hurt or been challenged, sometime unfairly, sometimes fairly. Maybe there are things in our collections which are bad, maybe we have incorrectly labeled something to be a fake when, in fact, it is real. WE NEED TO KNOW THE TRUTH, whatever it is. I urge you to join in here and share what you know. If anyone thinks you are wrong, you WILL be challenged. And you WILL be wrong sometimes, just as you will also be RIGHT sometimes.

Regards,
Leroy

[juoneen]

heres another set of 57 O&Swds 2 sided

[juoneen]

backside of swords




appears like the backside of the handles were adhered with JB weld or something similair, maybe epoxy. (no ball on end also.)

[juoneen]

this one has scraped against the cross

[juoneen]

[juoneen]

edge has a goob of the stuff, die marks on edge








edges show the cuts from the punch press with these stress marks id say

[juoneen]

more evidence on the edge

[juoneen]

more on sword end



The whole edge shows this same look, anybody think this may be an earlier version of other o- 57 shown ? I hope this is interesting to someone here in this section.

[DavidM]

PS: I think, it is the time for me, to leave the 1957 section, because I don't have friends here, based on my numerous controverse comments.

Hello Uwe

Here I go disagreeing with you again, but you are wrong. You do have friends here, and I certainly and genuinely value your comments and inputs into the discussions

I think that the real issue is the some of the terminology that is used - and I'm as guilty as anyone of this. We are all aware that the oaks, oaks with swords etc, because they didn't carry any proscribed symbols, didn't need to be included with the other new form items in 1957, and as such there only war time made originals or post war manufactured ones. Leroy has summed it up well when saying BUT the best ones we have seen always seem to be the ones produced early on (in the 1957-63 time frame). The later ones we have seen (from the 70's and 80's) were pure JUNK. . So for pure convienence, and parly based around a very few pieces known to have been bought as replacements by German veterans in a similar time frame, the term '57' is used as a convienence to distingush between the original, genuine war time made items, and the good quality post war made pieces. The term '57' as applied to these pieces is strictly incorrect, and is used for pure convienence by collectors - and an awful of dealers as well. For my pennies worth, that's how I see it.

But to go back to my first comment, and that is Uwe, you do have friends here, and your comments and inputs to the debates are always welcome.

Kind regards
David

[George L]

Well put David, and Leroy, too.

The term '57' as applied to these pieces is strictly incorrect, and is used for pure convienence by collectors - and an awful of dealers as well. For my pennies worth, that's how I see it.

David

[George L]

Juoneen, those oaks like a dodgy to me as they're clearly not S&L's. Could be a replica of wartime Godets?