Non S&L RK

[Franco]

Hi all,
Heres something unusual,a second pattern RK that isnt by S&L.The case is thought by Dave Kane to be an uncommon 57 variant.Its made in such a manner that when the cross is put away the loop,ribbon and ties all fit neatly into the top compartment,allowing the lid to close unobstructed.
As for the cross.Its a couple of mm less wide than an S&L with a non-magnetic core and an 800 marked frame and loop.The soldering has been done using silver solder which gives it a better finish.
The ribbon is the earlier 45mm wide one.Not 40mm as found on later crosses.It seems to me that this better than usual 2nd type cross must date from around the time of the change over from 1st to 2nd pattern.But who made it? Thats the question.
Cheers Franco

[Franco]

another pic

[Franco]

case pic

[Franco]

Top view

[Franco]

front catch

[Franco]

hinge view

[Peter Wiking]

I am sorry Franco. I do not consider these as legit 1957 crosses. I call them fakes. There is this guy who sell these every week at Ebay. Often marked with L/12 markings or 65 markings all over the place. Some have a matt finish to the frame. Others have a polished frame.

Happy New Year
Peter

[DavidM]

Hello

I'm afraid that I'm not too keen on this one either. The loop on it's own makes me suspicous - although of course a replacement loop could have been put on the cross. However, even on the 57 RKs, as with their WW2 made / issued counterparts, the loop should only have one double bend in it, and not two as this one does. From what I can see in the photos the loop appears to carry a mark on it. Is this an '800' or something similar marking?

Like Peter I have seen similar ones on E-Bay, and the picture Peter has posted shows an eye ring identical to yours on a fake 57 RK. On the one Peter shows it is spuriously marked '65' on the loop in an attempt to convince potential buyers that it is a K&Q made piece. Apart from the fact that, as far as I am aware, K&Q didn't make 57 RKs, the use of the '65' PK number was no longer in use by the time 57 items were being made - and certainly not by the time 2nd pattern cored ones came into being - the exception to this being fake swastika'd RKs. As the interest in 57 items has grown, along with the prices, some of those who previously peddled fake 39 RKs have now begun to release equally fake 57 RKs, often using the fake 39 RKs and re-coring them as 57 RKs. I'm afraid yours does appear to be one of these.

As a final note, there is a school of thought that feels that any 57 item, regardless of who has made it or when it was made is a legitimate item, and that no fakes of 57 pieces can exist. I do not subscribe to that view. Have a look at the thread below for this:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=188720

The best pieces to aim for are the earlier 57s, that is those made bewteen 1957 and the mid to late 1960s.

However, at the end of the day this purely my opinion and view point. The piece that you have shown certainly appears well finished and to be of reasonable quality, but I still feel it is not a true 57 RK.

Best wishes for the New Year.

Regards
David

[Franco]

Peter,
Not the same cross.The metals are different,especially the loop,mine is 800.I bet the core and frame measurements are different also.What type of ribbon do they have and are they cased? And if so.What type of case.Its probably not even made of silver,it looks like alloy to me and the markings on the loop are not stamped,they are engraved.The example you show is typical e-bay junk.I think we are going to have to disagree on this.I have eight 57 RKs all 2nd pattern most are S&L at least three are not and they are not what could in these circumstances be called repros.
Cheers Franco

[DavidM]

Peter,
Not the same cross.The metals are different,especially the loop,mine is 800.I bet the core and frame measurements are different also.What type of ribbon do they have and are they cased? And if so.What type of case.Its probably not even made of silver,it looks like alloy to me and the markings on the loop are not stamped,they are engraved.The example you show is typical e-bay junk.I think we are going to have to disagree on this.I have eight 57 RKs all 2nd pattern most are S&L at least three are not and they are not what could in these circumstances be called repros.
Cheers Franco

Hello

I feel that they are the same cross. Look at the areas I have highlighted in the picture that Peter posted. These match exactly, even down to the strange 'cut out' effect / appearance on the loop eye ring.

Cases and ribbons can added, mixed and matched and so on. Your case looks very nice and certainly isn't the usual modern RK reproduction types - whether 57 or 39. I'd agree with Dave Kanes comments on it.

As for the loop, as I mentioned in my previous post, it should not have a double bend on it. There should only be one single and one double bend on the loop. This is common to all RKs, whether 39 or 57. Check through the forum and any decent reference book to see this.

As I say, just my opinion, but with this one I do believe it to be of the same stable as the one you describe as 'typical E-Bay junk'.

Regards
David

[Franco]

David,
I dont believe that they are the same for reasons I have already stated.One sure test to prove this is to measure each,How wide is each frame and how wide is each core.If the measurements dont match then they are not from the same dies,Agreed?
Cheers Franco

[DavidM]

David,
I dont believe that they are the same for reasons I have already stated.One sure test to prove this is to measure each,How wide is each frame and how wide is each core.If the measurements dont match then they are not from the same dies,Agreed?
Cheers Franco

Hello

Measurements and weights would certainly be of use, bearing in mind that there are differences in measurement even between pieces known to be made out of the same dies. This is due to the finishing processes after soldering etc. So it would be an indicator within certain tolerances, but unless there was a marked difference, i.e. a couple of mm or more, it would not be prima facia evidence. Of more importance would be any distinct die characteristics which were common to both pieces, which in my opinion are apparent in the photo.

If Peter has a good front / rear shot of the RK he posted against yours we may be able to do a better comparison, and if Peter has one of these RKs in his possesion I'm sure that he would post the measurements.

What are the actual measurements and weight of your RK?

I'm off to see the New Year in now, so I look forward to continuing this disccusion tomorrow. Have a good evening, and a good New Year.

Kind regards
David

[Peter Wiking]

Franco
I have a wide accept for "unknown", "never seen before" and "recently discovered" items. I am a very curious person of nature and enjoy new discoverys. I am open to discuss your piece but for now your piece is the same as the fake i mention.

I have several photos of the fake i compare with. The producer behind it is tinkering and shanging it constantly. Markings, finish, ribbon loop, level of detail quality (edges and corners)... What remains though is the landmarks in the production tools. Below is another compare with just a few matches highlighted.

Cheers and a Happy New Year
Peter

[Franco]

Peter,
Whats pointed out can be eaqualy applied to most of my S&L crosses let alone this cross.Leaving aside for one moment the obvious difference in the metals.
Look at the base on which the beading sits,just below the 800 in your pic
The 800 is in contact with it.
Now look at the same place in my pic and you will see theres no contact.A minor point but worth pointing out while we are on the subject.
I dont think you own one of those crosses for the same reason that I dont.There junk and I would bet money on them not being 800 silver.
Cheers Franco
.

[Indy]

hi Franco

I think Peter is right. Fakers are making same fake awards by using the same dies, but they treat those fake awards with differnt finish process. So, those fakes would look differnt in aging, texture,and material. Peter tries to point out that your 57 RK has the same characters as known fake 57 RK. Your 57RK has a thin finish and fake aging reddish/dark parts. On the other hand, Peter's example had polishing process. Your pictures and his picture have different "WHITE BALANCE", so they would look different in material.

kr and happy new year
Indy