Help with combat knifes

[GLM]

Marc,

Because of the nature and combat history of the First Special Service Force, their uniforms, insignia, equipment, etc. have always brought very high, top-end dollars here for years. Your V-42 fighting knife is numbered (only first 500 blades were numbered) and appears to be in complete, excellent condition with the only problem being the cut down scabbard, which really isn't a problem. Many were cut down. Your V-42 is what is considered here to be "icing on the cake!"

You're correct on the spike. Skull crusher pommel.

Only wish I had some "one of a kind" buckles to try and tempt you into a trade! VERY NICE FIND!!

Gary

Hello All,

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Thank you for the help! I will certainly tread the US knife with more respect! 2500$… Wow, Looks like US militaria is catching up with the German stuff prices…<O></O>

Here a few more pictures of the knife

[Jean-Loup]

The US helmet with mobile chinstrap attachements was already worn in 1944, so its probably period, like the guy told you.

Anyone know how the V42 would have ended up in the Ardennes? Maybe a paratrooper traded it with a Forceman while in southern France?
JL

[GLM]

The US helmet with mobile chinstrap attachements was already worn in 1944, so its probably period, like the guy told you.

Anyone know how the V42 would have ended up in the Ardennes? Maybe a paratrooper traded it with a Forceman while in southern France?
JL

Jean-Loup,

I was wondering the same thing? An oldtimer I volunteered with at the VA hospital here had served as a Combat Medic with 517th PIR and was always extremely proud of his service with 82nd A/B? I didn't know 517th and 82nd were connected and had the impression 517th was an independent unit? Anyway, he told me that at one point in the war, he had been temporarily assigned as a medic to FSSF from 82nd. Also told me that he wore the FSSF patch on his left cuff sleeve below the 82nd patch. If this was done within the A/B units and FSSF with him, it may have been possible for other paratrooper's to have been temporarily assigned to FSSF and then later ending up in Ardennes? That's my guess?

Gary


Gary

[Allan H.]

Jean-Loup,

I was wondering the same thing? An oldtimer I volunteered with at the VA hospital here had served as a Combat Medic with 517th PIR and was always extremely proud of his service with 82nd A/B? I didn't know 517th and 82nd were connected and had the impression 517th was an independent unit? Anyway, he told me that at one point in the war, he had been temporarily assigned as a medic to FSSF from 82nd. Also told me that he wore the FSSF patch on his left cuff sleeve below the 82nd patch. If this was done within the A/B units and FSSF with him, it may have been possible for other paratrooper's to have been temporarily assigned to FSSF and then later ending up in Ardennes? That's my guess?

Gary

Actually, the men who were jump qualified from the Force were sent to the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions. One of my 101st sources told me that they had almost enough forcemen arrive as replacements in the 101st that the G-1 was able to assign one per platoon to all of the line Parachute Infantry units. Whether he was referring to one regiment or to all three of the PIR's is unclear. I do know that the V-42 in Bando's collection (see his excellent "Trigger Time" website www.101airborneww2.com ) came from a 101st vet who got the knife from a wounded forceman in the Ardennes. The forcemen arrived at Mourmelon shortly before the bulge erupted.

As for the 517th RCT- the 517th was originally assigned to the 17th airborne division. They were detached from the division, along with the 460th PFA Battalion and sent to Italy as a Seperate "Regimental Combat Team- one infantry regiment, one FA Battalion and one Engineer Company- the 596th. There are a few period photos of the 17th A/B SSI being worn in Italy, though this was against regulations.
After the 517th had fought through Italy and the invasion of Southern France, the unit was assigned to the 13th Airborne Division at the end of the war. This really upset these hardened combat veterans and they protested the assignment vigorously. I am not aware of the 517th having ever been assigned to the 82nd A/B Division.
Allan

[GLM]

Actually, the men who were jump qualified from the Force were sent to the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions. One of my 101st sources told me that they had almost enough forcemen arrive as replacements in the 101st that the G-1 was able to assign one per platoon to all of the line Parachute Infantry units. Whether he was referring to one regiment or to all three of the PIR's is unclear. I do know that the V-42 in Bando's collection (see his excellent "Trigger Time" website www.101airborneww2.com ) came from a 101st vet who got the knife from a wounded forceman in the Ardennes. The forcemen arrived at Mourmelon shortly before the bulge erupted.

As for the 517th RCT- the 517th was originally assigned to the 17th airborne division. They were detached from the division, along with the 460th PFA Battalion and sent to Italy as a Seperate "Regimental Combat Team- one infantry regiment, one FA Battalion and one Engineer Company- the 596th. There are a few period photos of the 17th A/B SSI being worn in Italy, though this was against regulations.
After the 517th had fought through Italy and the invasion of Southern France, the unit was assigned to the 13th Airborne Division at the end of the war. This really upset these hardened combat veterans and they protested the assignment vigorously. I am not aware of the 517th having ever been assigned to the 82nd A/B Division.
Allan

Allan - Not being an avid A/B collector and historian like you, the where, when, why and if of Para unit histories during WWII is very confusing for me, to say the least. The vet I was referring to, James B. "Jim" Bennett, recently deceased, served as a Combat Medic, PFC rank and I do recall him having BS sessions with other WWII 517th PIR vets at the VA hospital regarding their training while with 517th. He definitely told me he was temporarily attached to FSSF while serving with 82nd AB, not the other way around, so do you know if there were any of these temporary assignments from 82nd to FSSF while both units were in Italy? Are there any rosters or information out there to support his claim, etc.? That might have been what he was talking about? You previously filled me in on my t/m 517th jacket patch and s/b jump wings on the 505th oval, but I always get confused when trying to figure out if there was a 517th/82nd AB connection.

Thanks for filling in the blanks about how the V-42 may have ended up in Ardennes.

Gary

[Allan H.]

Gary,
I do hope that my last post wasn't insulting to you as that was not my intention at all. I fully believe what you wrote, but can't say that the 517th ever had any association with the 82nd Airborne Division. As for the 82nd/ FSSF association, yes, the men of the 504th RCT ( 504th PIR, 376th PFA and one company of the 307th Engineers) was left behind in Italy when the 82nd was pulled off the line to rest, refit, and prepare for the Normandy invasion. The 504th spent a lot of time working with, supporting, etc. the forcement of the FSSF. It is rather well documented that the two groups got along rather well together.
I don't have the rosters to be able to give you any good info on your medic, but it is quite possible that if he was wounded in Italy, he could have been re-assigned to the 517th RCT if the 504th had pulled out of Italy and left him in a hospital.
I don't foubt any of the information you related, just that the situation would have been fairly odd.
Allan

[Jean-Loup]

There is a picture in Michel de Trey's "Champagne campagne" that shows a 517 guy with a V-42.

JL

[GLM]

Actually Allan, I'm certain that you have probably forgotten more about A/B history than I'll ever know. Wasn't insulted in the least. I need to get rid of that 517th/82nd AB connection I acquired in my head with the 517th/505th Ken Goodbrake grouping and then Jim Bennett's 517th service and 82nd AB/FSSF connection stories. I don't study or collect AB like you, so the V-42/Ardennes connection was a pure guess on my part from Jim's stories of having worn both 82nd and FSSF patches on his jacket from his TDY. From your explanation of FSSF men ending up in AB units, sounds like I wasn't too far off.

Gary

Gary,
I do hope that my last post wasn't insulting to you as that was not my intention at all. I fully believe what you wrote, but can't say that the 517th ever had any association with the 82nd Airborne Division. As for the 82nd/ FSSF association, yes, the men of the 504th RCT ( 504th PIR, 376th PFA and one company of the 307th Engineers) was left behind in Italy when the 82nd was pulled off the line to rest, refit, and prepare for the Normandy invasion. The 504th spent a lot of time working with, supporting, etc. the forcement of the FSSF. It is rather well documented that the two groups got along rather well together.
I don't have the rosters to be able to give you any good info on your medic, but it is quite possible that if he was wounded in Italy, he could have been re-assigned to the 517th RCT if the 504th had pulled out of Italy and left him in a hospital.
I don't foubt any of the information you related, just that the situation would have been fairly odd.
Allan

[Marc verstraete]

Hi Guy’s, here the follow up of last weeks discovery. I wend back to the place I found the daggers and took most of the stuff that was left. Surprise, meanwhile the owner had been looking and found a few more items. One of them being what I believe to be a WWII period paratrooper carbine and Parachute. The owner (son of the original owner) with who I became friend after chairing some family stories told me some of the stuff might not be from the bulge as his father was in Korea Congo and Vietnam (Indochina) He told me there must be more stuff somewhere, (he lives in a 500 hectare property with castle, guard houses, farms…the diagonal from his property is ONE and half mile!!!) and also with his fathers brother who took many thing years ago. Sadly (for me) all the German stuff was given away more than 15 years ago to a young guy who collected the stuff…From his explanation there was for a fortune an material (SS helmets, caps, paratrooper stuff, guns , MP 44’s I believe and from the details given to me probably a FG42!!!)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>

Let me know if you need detailed picture of some of the items.<o></o>

Marc

[Marc verstraete]

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[Marc verstraete]

There are much more patches, I just post the ones I like the best. Total there are over 50 but including lots of French, Belgian items from the post war Corea period and Belgian 1944 liberation Brigades of whitch the owner was part of.

[Marc verstraete]

...

[GLM]

Hello Marc,

Another great haul you've made!

I can comment on some of your goodies, starting with the M1A1 Para Carbine. The only company that produced this version of Carbine during WWII was Inland, so look at the receiver and make sure it is marked Inland Div. with the serial number. If that's there, you have a good start. Next, look at the bottom of the pistol grip. Original folding stocks should have "RI" or "OI" markings on the bottom of the pistol grip. The marking "OI" should also be inside of the stock, right below the spot where your gas cylinder sits, but you'll have to pull the barrel and receiver to find that mark. Inland originally produced these stocks with the "high wood" operating rod handle groove of 6-1/2", but I believe they also used the "low wood" stock late in 1944, which had the 10" stock groove. Your rifle is laying on the wrong side to see the groove, but if it has the "high wood" with 6-1/2" groove, it would be more desirable. If the markings I mentioned are there, you have a very good chance of having a nice scarce Para Carbine. Many of these Carbines were rebuilt after the war and the folding stocks have also been faked, with some looking very convincing, so if yours has the markings mentioned, we'll go into finer detail as to whether it's all original. If original, very nice indeed!

Now, for the patches. You've got some very nice WWII patches and I don't see one in the bunch that would cause me any concern.

Top row, left is 13th AB Div. without OD border, which is a little bit harder to find than the OD border version. Next is a U.S. made wool 1st Inf. Div. patch (my dad's outfit during WWII). Some patch collectors will say these are British made, but they are fully embroidered on wool U.S. made just prior to WWII, I believe, in 1940-1941 and early 1942. I've seen them on unmessed with pre war 1st Div. uniforms of soldiers that never made it overseas or England. Next patch is fully embroidered U.S. made AB Command and last in top row is a printed, Brit made 9th AAF.

2nd row, left with the small white X patch. I have no idea on that one? Possibly Brit or European from the weave? Next patch is fully embroidered U.S. made 1st Allied AB Army, next is a common U.S. 2nd Inf. Div., next is Para Glide cap patch for the officer's overseas cap and another U.S. made 1st Allied AB Army.

3rd row, left is what appears to be a very nice hand embroidered Yank Correspondent patch, possibly made in England (very nice, scarce patch made that way), next is the AB tab that goes with your 82nd AB patch on the far right end. Now...the Mountain tab below the AB tab is something I haven't seen before made this way. It looks like a Brit made printed tab and if original, probably the scarcest to rarest patch in this lot. Closer obverse and reverse photos would be appreciated on this patch. It should be arched like the AB tab, but maybe just the way it has been bent in the photo? Very unusual to see a printed patch like this with an edge border? Very nice! Below the Mountain tab are 3 more AB O/S cap patches with EM's having the glider flying to the viewer's left and officer's glider flying to the right. The officer's patch with light blue border is on the scarcer side, compared to the final version of red, white and blue pattern on the others.

I'll leave the other goodies to the guys here who really know their stuff on helmet liners, parachutes, etc..

Regards,
Gary

[ROBB]

Cripes .Thats what I call a good haul ,it would be well worth posting the FS knife on the British forum for Britpc (Irv) to have a look at ,and that looks like a super rare compressed cardboard US helmet liner bottom right.Its amazing what is still out there .Rob.

[britpc]

Hi Marc,
First I would like to say that is a great close up of the crossguard The knife is a 2nd Pattern Fairbairn Sykes. They were made between 1941-1943. The /I\ B2 is a nice mark to have on this type of knife, although it can be found on 3rd patterns aswell. This mark always tend to make more money than a lot of the others marked knives. Your 'B2' mark is fine, not always the case as they fake this mark. The light strike with half of the 'B' missing and '2' hardly visible is common. The knife is well worn as it would have been all blued when issued, this would affect the price but should still be nearly £180-£210. I've seen ones with most of the blueing complete go for as much as £350. The blade should be 6 7/8 inch long. Anything less and it will in all probability have been tipped. Having said that I have just picked up one that is 6 5/8 inch and the blueing is complete so can't have been tipped as the blades were oil blued it is hard to hide where a blade has been re blued. (I'll post a picture later).
What you have to remember is that these earlly knives were hand ground and as such could differ. But usually because this was a military contract anything under 6 7/8 were rejected, which is were the inspection mark (/I\B2) mark comes in. If you read the reference book they will state that the /I\ B2 were Wilkinson Sword made. There is nothing that can prove this assumption
The scabbard is a match to your knife. Correct flat end chape and should have the frog stitched to the scabbard. Nice to see the leather taps that were used to stitch the scabbard to clothing are still there. These were often cut off. The elastic is often missing or broken (stretched).
A nice knife, well done.
Regards
Irv

The other “commando” knife is indeed British; I did not see the arrow at first.<O></O>

Marc<O></O>