Help on Japanese Sword

[Beater]

I meant it doesn’t matter it’s gimei it’s a nice looking blade
Not sure I would give it to our Cheshire friend I have another polisher in mind
If it was genuine it would be worth an awful lot I was offered $250,000 if my nodachi passed shinsa

Yes, there are others in the UK (north of the border) who produce excellent results at affordable prices.

Fortunately I am confident Promo is an intellectual man who will ignore the speculation and hyperbole and is very capable of taking this to the right conclusion. I hope he updates this thread in years to come and shows us what he has done with his fascinating sword.

[BruceP]

Are they coming back to the U.K. Bruce? I’d like to ask them about the mistake they made with my Shodai Masahiro! That’s another story though.

Sorry, don't know. I just recalled that Chris works the Chicago shinsa and thought Promo might find the info useful.

[nickn]

Thank you Ben for correcting that inaccurate assumption. I can't be bothered to address the others. It's only a curio and I'm the only one in the debate who wasn't trying to buy it.
Others reading this will also know my thoughts about authenticity and whether I've done any comparisons. How crass. At least I can spell gimei and kantei.

Read the pm I sent promo
I wasn’t trying to buy the sword
So that’s two of us
As for spelling spell check does some wonderful things which old eyes sometimes miss

[Promo]

There were others who were trying to buy it via PM .. but it doesn't matter since I've anyway not responded to them.

Bob, just of curiosity and for all to see it: how much would you had offered me for this blade, in the condition as shown? You had claimed it would not be worth polishing it, so I really wonder where you estimate the value to be. Nothing against the rules here since I already have mentioned several times that I won't be selling it, so feel free to give me your value estimate on it.

From the recent discussion I understood that based on the location of the Mei (brass thing on the blade) most would say it is a fake? How do I get it papered and what do I need to do for it (here in Europe, without sending it somewhere abroad)?

Nick, I've already mentioned several times that I paid € 100 (not USD nor GBP) for it. And I mentioned that it is here with me in Europe. So finally a last time: it is NOT in the US! It isn't on an Island in Europe either and will still be in the European Union past 12th April 2019.

[BenVK]

Mei is the word for the inscriptions on the tang of the blade.
Habaki is the brass thing on the blade.

[nickn]

There were others who were trying to buy it via PM .. but it doesn't matter since I've anyway not responded to them.

Bob, just of curiosity and for all to see it: how much would you had offered me for this blade, in the condition as shown? You had claimed it would not be worth polishing it, so I really wonder where you estimate the value to be. Nothing against the rules here since I already have mentioned several times that I won't be selling it, so feel free to give me your value estimate on it.

From the recent discussion I understood that based on the location of the Mei (brass thing on the blade) most would say it is a fake? How do I get it papered and what do I need to do for it (here in Europe, without sending it somewhere abroad)?

Nick, I've already mentioned several times that I paid € 100 (not USD nor GBP) for it. And I mentioned that it is here with me in Europe. So finally a last time: it is NOT in the US! It isn't on an Island in Europe either and will still be in the European Union past 12th April 2019.

I have never asked you what you paid I am not interested
So why you mention €/$???
I only asked ONCE IN A PM if it was in Europe or the us so I could advice you where to send it
But having looked at your additional photos of the Mei there is no need to send it anywhere the signature is fake
But to send to shinsa in Japan it will need polishing and will cost serveral thousand EUROS
If you don’t believe me I suggest you learn about Japanese swords by spending several thousand EUROS (what a silly name) on books
As for Europe you are welcome to the mess

[BobI]

#1, Sorry, English is my main language and I have experience with a few others. However, I can't ever figure out the "i" before "e" thing in any of them!

#2, There are many books out there but most of the good ones are pretty old, in Japanese, out of print and very expensive. That is if you can even find them!!! Many of them will help you tell if a sword is real or bad.

#3, I do not drink, smoke, almost never swear and do not gamble. But..... in this case I will bet Kevin 1000 dollars the sword has a fake signature.

#4, A real polisher (not in Japan) which the only real one I know of is Jimmy Heiashi and yes, I am certain I spelled that wrong and he is in the US. Bob Benson in Hawaii is also someone who's work is respected by the Japanese. In Europe I am not familiar with anyone who is known as a "real" polisher. There are guys like Moses who have skill as well but then you go to the third rate and further polishers. I have had some of the third rate guys polish a sword that I liked but, I was certain of what I was sending. I remember someone sending a highly rated Rai school blade to a "no-one" polisher who destroyed the blade. To the untrained eye it looked fine but to a true student of nihonto details were changed and it would never paper by the Japanese to what it is therefore destroyng an art object and the value. If you sent it to Japan depending on the polisher and yes, there are bad polishers there as well. So, with the right guy you are looking at roughly 2500-4500 dollars to polish it. You have to remember to have a real polisher work on this price increases by length and complexity of the blade.

#5, What is this sword worth as it is? In part I would really need to see it in hand to see what flaws it may and may not have. If there is a break in the metal or temper which can happen at the forging time it absolutely ruins the blade. I did see an almost identical blade a few years ago, one side was nice and the other horribly pitted and rusted. So much that it would not have taken a polish. It was worthless to me and most people, I made no offer.

#6, The sword market is in the toilet, the easiest swords to sell are military swords these days. Over the last 40 years of collecting I watched prices fall from outer space in the 80's and early 90's to where they are now. In those days military swords were considered junk and NCOs even worse. If this sword is free of flaws it would sell somewhere from 1500 US to 3000 US. This is real money and not "just talking", this is the range I would pay for it. It would go in a pile to get polished "maybe" before I die. Would I ever get my money back, NO! I would send it to what I consider a third rate polisher which is still someone with skill and knowledge. Real polishers understand how to move metal and not remove it.

#7, Nick is right, you really need to spend many thousands of dollars on books and making mistakes. God, have I made mistakes over the years!!! However, in this case I am absolutely certain of what this sword is.

I really like the blade but I need it as much as I need a hole in the head!
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Promo]

Nick, I did not mean to be rude, but the ton of PM coming in really overwhelmed me, additionally information using lots of terms which I have never heard before (japanese terms) which I had to look up and the fact that I‘m not a native English speaker led to my decision to:
1. keep everything in public so that knowledgeable persons can help me in seeing what is wrong information and what is correct
2. ignore all offers to purchase on items which I don‘t know yet what it is and therefore don‘t feel to be fair
3. as a result of the above two points do not respond to PM at all and instead try to answer any content-related question directly here in the thread.

In post #14 I had mentioned I paid € 100 for it in a court auction. I thought by mentioning this the readers in here would assume that at a court where you pay in EURO the official currency is also EURO, therefore making it clear that I‘m in the European Union.
In a second attempt in post #26 I clearly wrote that the blade is NOT in the US but in the Europe, plus mentioning the price and the currency once more.

For whatever reason people keep ignoring my posts or what I am typing, so I was bit fed up when I‘ve seen you questioning again where I am located (but of course with good intention, to recommend someone in the US or UK). I hope I now made it clear why my recent post was, well, more direct than the previous ones.

I have learned a literal ton from what was written in here and I‘m thankful for all who helped, especially those who helped in translating the markings and letting me know what they mean. I‘ve also understood that the consent of several in here is that it is not what it claims to be. Please also understand that this is annoying as well that those who tell you the markings are incorrect only 5 minutes later shoot you a PM asking if you would sell it and makes them suspicious.

The current status is that I‘ll be keeping it. A nice member from in here gave me additional tips and all I‘m doing now is wiping it down with a bit more oil to make sure it is preseved in the condition it is now. If I‘m supplied additional information with certain proofs according to scientfic standards I‘m very thankful for those. And additionally a local friend of mine living right in the next village turned out to be a member of the European NBTHK with a great collection. He will visit me and will be trying to find out more.

[nickn]

I sent you the pm before you posted your posts
I never asked what you paid
I never offered to buy it I don’t need or want another project
I guess with all the pms you got confused with who sent what pm??
But even if someone did ask what you paid or where you were based why has this upset you?
You have gone on a public forum to get advice but you seem to have taken offence
Japanese swords are very complicated even an “expert” will not know half of it and will still be learning
It’s not like specific guns where you can easily learn all there is to know with a couple of books
If your blade has any fatal flaws it has no value to a Japanese sword collector that’s why it needs to be looks at in hand photos can only show so much but from research I have done on this smiths when I thought I had bought one I can say it’s gimei but spend the money get it polished and send it for shinsa ,hang it in the wall or sell it to someone who is more interested in nihonto then you

[Promo]

You had asked me for my location with good intention. I did not say you were trying to buy this item from me. Others were. Noone asked me what I paid for it. I mentioned this to place a hidden hint for others to know that I‘m neither in the UK nor in the US. And I did this twice.

I went here because a friend of mine I know was always a bit interested in Katanas. I showed it to him when I got it asking what it is worth. He said there might be markings that could influence value, I will need to take off the handle to see if there are some. Using his description I managed to remove the handle and showed him these markings. He said he has no clue, I should ask on a forum. And when asking for a forum, he said I should try this forum here. Well, that is what I then did. My intentions are and were always the same, to learn what these mean. I was told what they mean and I‘m thankful for this. I‘ve also learnt that there are fakes being made (or gimei, whatever they are called, the end result is still that they are fakes) and I‘ve been told that this is what my sword appears to be.

Since it is already mine and I bought it at court in an auction without knowing much on it at all, I still don‘t feel I did too bad on it. It also means that it was taken off a criminal or at least someone who got his weapons seized, so not necessarily a source where one should expect they are selling fakes for profit, but simply to empty their storages once a case is closed. I had only paid the already mentioned € 100 (that equals $ 112 or 86 GBP), and included at that price was an IOD 89 saber. So there is not much lost from my side with it, even when it is a fake. This was also the reason why I said I will be keeping it, since I anyway had always wanted to have one of those and while it may not be original, it still looks and feels great.

Another member here is still trying to find out more and research it in deeper detail. If he finds proof that it is something special, it would be great. If it isn‘t, then I know from more sides what I‘ve been told already. And I had mentioned a local friend who will also be trying to help me.

This thread here got a bit out of control. This was not a result of you but a consequence of a flood of messages and information that I had been confronted with and having a hard time to pick what is correct and incorrect and what is meant good and what wouldn‘t be good for the item itself.

Since I currently do not have any plans to get it polished this is anyway not a possibility for me. If I‘m given additional information and comparison pictures which allow me to see the difference between originals and mine this is highly appreciated because it will also allow me to learn. And if there are knowledeable persons in the European Union which would (or want) look at it in person without having to ship it to anyone who I have never met in person I‘m also in.

As a result therefore I‘m happy to end the off-topic discussion and make it clear nothing of what I had said was meant offensive and get back to information that not only helps me, but will also be future reference for others looking up this topic here.

[Beater]

#3, I do not drink, smoke, almost never swear and do not gamble. But..... in this case I will bet Kevin 1000 dollars the sword has a fake signature.

That's nice to know Bob, me neither. What's this bet got to do with me? Suggest you carefully re-read everything I've written in this thread. Find the bit where I say it IS genuine - you won't. Best not get into gambling either if you don't study the form.

I don't publicly state the binary choice between genuine or gimei, preferring to leave that to the experts. Simply not agreeing with you does not necessarily mean I disagree with you either. Challenging and debate is healthy and constructive.

Best keep your $1000 in your pocket if times are hard for you dealers. I've got a real job and this is just a hobby.

[GHP]

BobI,

The sword could be a very nice and well-made one — only viewing it in hand by an expert will tell. The “fake” part applies only to the signature at this time; if/when it is judged to be gimei. Many combat-effective swords can be gimei yet still be a good sword.

You did well with this purchase. I think we all are envious and are, at the same time, happy for your good fortune.

— Guy

[Beater]

BobI,

The sword could be a very nice and well-made one — only viewing it in hand by an expert will tell. The “fake” part applies only to the signature at this time; if/when it is judged to be gimei. Many combat-effective swords can be gimei yet still be a good sword.

You did well with this purchase. I think we all are envious and are, at the same time, happy for your good fortune.

— Guy

Ippon! Contest over. You won Guy.

[nickn]

As has been said the sword isn’t a fake the signature is
This is very very common with Japanese swords
In fact the last thing to look at when studying a blade is the nakago or tang
I doubt very much that you will get anyone to come to you to give an opinion especially if you start off with it’s not for sale
And if they did you would have to pay for their time and travel
It will have to be posted
If you think it’s genuine get it polished and sent to shinsa this would have to be done in Japan I do not know if any planed shinsa outside of Japan???
If it’s genuine it’s worth an awful lot of money
If it’s not you will have a very nice blade assuming it has no flaws
Japanese blade are always a gamble unless bought polished and papered
Good luck what ever you decide to do

[BobI]

BobI,

The sword could be a very nice and well-made one — only viewing it in hand by an expert will tell. The “fake” part applies only to the signature at this time; if/when it is judged to be gimei. Many combat-effective swords can be gimei yet still be a good sword.

You did well with this purchase. I think we all are envious and are, at the same time, happy for your good fortune.

— Guy

1. I am not a dealer for income anymore, I have a store and a construction and real estate company.

2. Guy, I absolutely agree with you! I had mentioned earlier that in the 80s and 90s it was important to have the ideal and papered for the time period blade I was looking at. Now days, I buy what I like. However, unless you are a billionaire most people need to consider the resale of a sword.

3. I am the one not very smart who will buy a sword like this and have it polished, it is a loosing proposition.

4. Get books out and you will see this is a fake signature, no more question to it.

5. I don't gamble and that was my point, it would be a guaranteed thousand dollars in my pocket. I would double or triple that proposition as well!
Bob