Help on Japanese Sword

[nickn]

It looks like a copy of Kogarasu Maru a very famous old sword
I cannot remember the fakers name
Kagiha ,spelt wrong, springs to mind

[Beater]

Kogarasu Maru, or "Little Crow," has a double edged point, deeply cranked nakago and much wider naginata hi. This has gomabashi (twin parallel) plus the full length one and it has a unokubi-zukuri point. I see where you’re coming from Nick.

I too think it may be gimei on the balance of probabilities but am compiling a number of examples of Kiyomaro’s work over his short but quite productive career for comparison. I also think the quality of the koshirae is inconsistent with what would always have been an important sword.

Also slightly intrigued with date (12th year of Tenpo, which began in 1830, so this date is 1841). I believe this corresponds with the time he was absent without leave from his obligation to produce 100 swords for an important Lord, and “disappeared” after making only one?
I agree that even if gimei, it is /was an accomplished blade with nice lines, deserving of restoration. But I’m certainly not saying it is gimei at the moment.

[nickn]

Can you remeber the name of the forger who specialised in kiyomaru blades
Kajihi sounds right spelling is wrong
I would love to see this sword in hand

[Beater]

Can you remeber the name of the forger who specialised in kiyomaru blades
Kajihi sounds right spelling is wrong
I would love to see this sword in hand

Not heard of that as a name but Kaji-hi means grooves cut by the swordsmith himself!
I’m reading everything I can find on Kiyomaro at the moment, if I find reference to a prolific forger, I’ll post something.

Yes, I’d love to see this one too.

[nickn]

I know
Kajihi is my phonetic rendering of a smiths name I cannot remember

[nickn]

I wasn’t far off
Kajihei

[GHP]

Hmmmmm --- would you say that the placement of the date shows that it is gimei? If we look at where the original habaki would have been placed, the habaki would have partially covered the date.

Thoughts?

--Guy

[Beater]

Hmmmmm --- would you say that the placement of the date shows that it is gimei? If we look at where the original habaki would have been placed, the habaki would have partially covered the date.

Thoughts?

--Guy

Good thinking, however another possible explanation may be this is purporting to be a Shinshinto copy of an (actual?) old and famous naginata and the placement of mekugi-ana on pole arms can be lower down on the pole than you typically find on a tsuka?

I also think someone capable of making a sword this convincingly and cutting the mei etc, which is a fairly accurate representation (more on that via an e mail, as I'd like your opinion on something) wouldn't be so daft as to cut the mei and forget where the habaki would rest. Just my thoughts.

[nickn]

Good thinking, however another possible explanation may be this is purporting to be a Shinshinto copy of an (actual?) old and famous naginata and the placement of mekugi-ana on pole arms can be lower down on the pole than you typically find on a tsuka?

I also think someone capable of making a sword this convincingly and cutting the mei etc, which is a fairly accurate representation (more on that via an e mail, as I'd like your opinion on something) wouldn't be so daft as to cut the mei and forget where the habaki would rest. Just my thoughts.

I agree
May we have some more photos of the blade ?

[BobI]

Years ago when swords were hot, late 80's and early 90's it was important to have papered examples. Now, I really don't care, I like blades that I think are cool which is most important. I like age but I also like the odd shapes such as this one. I think it is trying to be a Nakamaki-naoshi which many do not care for but I do. I do suspect it is gemei but my largest concern would be flaws in the blade. I would love to buy this sword if it were for and had no issues besides the signature, really cool!
Pretty cool!
Bob

[Promo]

Please stop PM‘ing me and asking if I would sell it. This does not make you look honest, especially not if you first make a post in here voting towards a fake and in a second step asking me if I would sell this fake. I will not respond to them.

While I‘m watching the comments with great interest (and having to use Google a lot to learn what all of these terms mean that are mentioned in here), I wanted to point out for all:

I have bought this item for € 100, as mentioned on the first page. The item is also not in the US but in Europe. I have absolutely no plan of selling it. If it turns out to be a fake (or gimei, as you call it), I‘ll keep it as a nice and good looking wall hanger.

Additional pictures or dimensions are not a problem. But please let me know what I need to take pictures of and what I need to measure since I was under the impression I had pictured everything that is there.

So from what I was able to gather so far that the markings on the blade speak towards a rare maker and also the blade was used as a test cutting blade. Based on this it would be very rare. Since this would be such an uncommon find most here would vote towards a fake and are discussing detail aspects. So what should I do to verify it as original or fake?

[BenVK]

Beautiful blade and bargain of the year even if it turns out to be a gimei (fake) Kiyomaro.
Fake obviously sounds bad but it was a common occurrence in Japan for sword smiths to forge the signature of other highly regarded and "famous" smiths. The value and desirability of a gimei is a complex question and depends on a lot of factors which I don't claim to understand myself.

To answer the question of whether it's a genuine Kiyomaro or not will probably mean sending the sword to Japan so that a panel of experts can judge it. As far as I'm aware though, the blade or part of the blade will need to be polished before the experts will even look at it. (Correct me if I'm wrong here guys)
This whole process can be costly however so you need to take a step back now and think carefully about what you want to do next. There's no rush and no pressure on you to do anything with the blade that you don't want to do. It's yours now and if you wish to leave it as it is, that's fine, just keep it oiled to prevent more rusting.

Sad to hear that you are being hassled to sell it. That's not cool but it happens on this forum all the time so don't feel too insulted.

[Promo]

I've just did a few more pictures to show the dimensions, if those help at all. To the Anglo-American friends with the weird dimensions , all dimensions are in the only correct Metric system and therefore in cm.













Then I did something else, when already having it in hand I took out oil and clothing and just wiped down the blade for 10 minutes. This already made much of what is shown in the initial pictures as rust already disappear:









And finally I decided to take some pictures using different light to show more details of the blade:

[Beater]

Beautiful blade and bargain of the year even if it turns out to be a gimei (fake) Kiyomaro.
Fake obviously sounds bad but it was a common occurrence in Japan for sword smiths to forge the signature of other highly regarded and "famous" smiths. The value and desirability of a gimei is a complex question and depends on a lot of factors which I don't claim to understand myself.

To answer the question of whether it's a genuine Kiyomaro or not will probably mean sending the sword to Japan so that a panel of experts can judge it. As far as I'm aware though, the blade or part of the blade will need to be polished before the experts will even look at it. (Correct me if I'm wrong here guys)
This whole process can be costly however so you need to take a step back now and think carefully about what you want to do next. There's no rush and no pressure on you to do anything with the blade that you don't want to do. It's yours now and if you wish to leave it as it is, that's fine, just keep it oiled to prevent more rusting.

Sad to hear that you are being hassled to sell it. That's not cool but it happens on this forum all the time so don't feel too insulted.

Well said young Ben. Somebody taught you well😉

[BenVK]

He did master Yoda!
Only 20 more years of study left before I know nearly as much as you do.