NCO ww2 Sword

[Beater]

Do you mean fake as in modern reproduction intended to deceive or simply a modern reproduction?

My understanding is that brown tassels that were originally only used on naval swords (kaigunto) but were more generally used on army officer swords (shingunto) towards the end of the war.

It seems that you are stating that the tassel illustrated is a modern reproduction intended to deceive. I am wondering how you reach this conclusion.

I have 50-60 or so brown tassels that I acquired over the years. I am not at all sure that I could spot a fake from a single somewhat blurred photo. I am wondering what made you come to such a conclusion.


.

See the post two below yours. Gunto has corrected himself.
50-60 tassels - are they attached to swords? Sounds like you could keep us entertained for months if you posted pictures of those!

[mp409mm]

HI, after some searching this morning I found that the traditional forged swords has the TAN stamp, so does it mean that swords without the TAN stamp are all Machine made.
Over that I can'y find any reference to Kiyonobu. the name on the tang.

Thanks
Alf.

[nickn]

no
Gendiato can have no stamp or some sort of stamp but not Showa or seki stamps which both indicate non traditionaly made
Although I do have a sword with a seki stamp that has clear itame hada and niedeki hamon???

[mp409mm]

no
Gendiato can have no stamp or some sort of stamp but not Showa or seki stamps which both indicate non traditionaly made
Although I do have a sword with a seki stamp that has clear itame hada and niedeki hamon???

Nickn, I appreciated very much your explanation , but I wish I could follow your explanation more since I am new to this section of hobby I do not know any thing about it. While I thank you again for your help, maybe if you have the time you can send it in plain English. What I am trying to do is establish if my sword is machine made or not.
I apologies for my lack of knowledge
Alf.

[gunto]

Nickn, I appreciated very much your explanation , but I wish I could follow your explanation more since I am new to this section of hobby I do not know any thing about it. While I thank you again for your help, maybe if you have the time you can send it in plain English. What I am trying to do is establish if my sword is machine made or not.
I apologies for my lack of knowledge
Alf.

Its in plain english. all japanese items has names, all. In the collecting field its normal to use the japanese names. Its near a must. Study,study.......

[mp409mm]

Its in plain english. all japanese items has names, all. In the collecting field its normal to use the japanese names. Its near a must. Study,study.......

Of course, sorry, as you said, I have to study more, Thanks
Alf

[Beater]

Of course, sorry, as you said, I have to study more, Thanks
Alf

Hi Alf,

Your sword, made in Seki and bearing that stamp, is not going to be a traditionally made gendaito. It is therefore, a non-traditionally made sword. I find "machine made" and "hand forged" unhelpful expressions because whilst steam hammers may have replaced traditional muscle power and the starting point been a billet of steel from a foreign source rather than a pile of locally produced tamahagane (special iron smelted in Japan used for traditional swords) there would have been hand work involved.

Nick has pointed out that with few exceptions, any stamp means non-traditional. Star stamped blades are traditionally made. There have been rare cases where a stamped blade has all the hall-marks of a gendaito and some where they have received papers in Japan once the stamp is removed, but these are the rare exception to the rule.

The "tan" stamp is an unusual category and whilst forged, i.e. heated and beaten, the product used may not be tamahagane and so may not be regarded as totally traditional. It is one of the unusual stamps because why stamp at all, if the main purpose was to identify with a stamp, swords which were NOT traditionally made?

I hope that helps - it can be very confusing to a new-comer and the nomenclature does not help. 100% sure your sword is a non traditionally made, but still a great piece.

[mp409mm]

Hi Alf,

Your sword, made in Seki and bearing that stamp, is not going to be a traditionally made gendaito. It is therefore, a non-traditionally made sword. I find "machine made" and "hand forged" unhelpful expressions because whilst steam hammers may have replaced traditional muscle power and the starting point been a billet of steel from a foreign source rather than a pile of locally produced tamahagane (special iron smelted in Japan used for traditional swords) there would have been hand work involved.

Nick has pointed out that with few exceptions, any stamp means non-traditional. Star stamped blades are traditionally made. There have been rare cases where a stamped blade has all the hall-marks of a gendaito and some where they have received papers in Japan once the stamp is removed, but these are the rare exception to the rule.

The "tan" stamp is an unusual category and whilst forged, i.e. heated and beaten, the product used may not be tamahagane and so may not be regarded as totally traditional. It is one of the unusual stamps because why stamp at all if the main purpose was to identify with a stamp swords which were NOT traditionally made?

I hope that helps - it can be very confusing to a new-comer and the nomenclature does not help. 100% sure your sword is a non traditionally made, but still a great piece.

Thank you very much Beater, for your time to explain this in detail, as you said it a bit confusing and the more I search the more I get confused,
I never expected traditional Katana with what I paid because at least I know the prices for old traditional sword, but I neither want a copy that are made to-day by the thousand, which they look beautiful and cheap because I want part of history at least. The fact that it is signed I think at least it has some value. You get what you pay
Again thank you for your time.
Alf.

[BenVK]

Alf, I think you bought wisely because this is a very nice example.

[Beater]

Alf

You said you could find no trace of Kiyonobu, so I had a look at what I had. Here he is, note the use of an art name (Nagamura) AND no stamp but with "kitau" in his mei, which means forged. So it appears your man did make traditional blades, although yours is not. This is not unusual.



Here's another, which appears to be non traditional.

[mp409mm]

Alf, I think you bought wisely because this is a very nice example.

Thank you for your kind words
Alf

[mp409mm]

""You said you could find no trace of Kiyonobu, so I had a look at what I had. Here he is, note the use of an art name (Nagamura) AND no stamp but with "kitau" in his mei, which means forged. So it appears your man did make traditional blades, although yours is not. This is not unusual.""

Thank you Beater, very kind of you. Now at least I know some useful information when I show my Katana.
Alf

[GHP]

Alf

You said you could find no trace of Kiyonobu, so I had a look at what I had. Here he is, note the use of an art name (Nagamura)...

Note: 長村 Nagamura [Osamura is the commonly-used reading] is his civilian surname; Kiyonobu is his art name. Possibly used the surame to differentiate from another (past? current?) Kinyonobu.

Cheers,
--Guy

[mp409mm]

Note: 長村 Nagamura [Osamura is the commonly-used reading] is his civilian surname; Kiyonobu is his art name. Possibly used the surame to differentiate from another (past? current?) Kinyonobu.

Cheers,
--Guy

Thank you, actually I found 6 with the name Kiyonobu, which I do not know if it is the same.
Alf

[BruceP]

Alf,

As you've probably already found, there are numerous places via the web to learn terminology, history, and science of Japanese sword making and markings. Here's 3 I love and use quite often:

http://ohmura-study.net/900 (if this one comes up in Japanese, there is a "English Version" link at the bottom of the page)

http://www.japaneseswordindex.com

http://meiboku.info/guide.html

If you search, there may be similar sites in your language.