Two Signed Japanese Silk Flags For Regiewee

[manayunkman]

More details.

[GHP]

I can now clearly see the 柱 kanji and concur with Eric that 国柱神社 is the shrine's name. Its actual pronunciation is きないじんじゃ Kinai Jinja (link).

The shrine goes by two names: Kinai-jinja and ハリマの宮 Harima no Miya.

In researching the names, it appears both names were introduced from the neo-Shinto writings, Reikai Monogatari [Stories of the Spiritual World] by Deguchi Onisaburo 出口王仁三郎, one of the charismatic leaders of the Ōmoto religion. Deguchi was the spiritual leader to Uyeshiba Morihei -- who developed aikido after he received his teaching license in the severe Daitoryu aikijujutsu arts.

So I'm wondering if this shrine is an Ōmoto-kyo shrine?

It still puzzles me why it was written in this cross-shaped horizontal then vertical pattern:

3.
2. 1.
4.

When the other was written cross-shaped vertical then horizontal:

1.
4. 3.
2.

....perhaps something to do with the neo-Shinto mysticism.

No wonder this "shrine" was difficult to research ... it's not on the official shrine list.

There is the 国柱会 Kokuchūkai [same kanji as used by "Kinai"] -- but this is a lay Buddhist organization associated with Nichiren Shu [not to be confused with Nichiren Shoshu that broke away, then formed Sokka Gakkai].

Please bounce my thoughts off onto Eric for his opinion or corrections. I'm not fluent in Japanese and I might have missed some facts or nuances.


Cheers,
-- Guy


[EDIT: It now looks like this is a Cupman-manufactured/enhanced flag .... too bad I did so much research. I should have waited for that last post showing the soldier stamp.]

[GHP]

More details.

UH-OHHHHH .... that stamp is the sign of a Cupman fake!


Others will now chime in, as they are more familiar with Cupman's work.


-- Guy

[manayunkman]

Who is cupman?

[manayunkman]

I guess Cupman and the monkey guy are one and the same.

I searched the internet and this forum and found many Cupman fakes.

Not one of his signed Japanese flags had a red stamp.

Guy, I appreciate all your input.

Can you produce a picture of a fake Japanese flag with this red soldier stamp?

Thank you for all the time you have put into this.

[GHP]

Not one of his signed Japanese flags had a red stamp.... Can you produce a picture of a fake Japanese flag with this red soldier stamp?

I thought we had some on WAF, but can't find them. Here's one. Look at the flag at the bottom and let me know if it looks like a close relative of your flag or not:

Gunboards.com


-- Guy

[GHP]

This is the flag you currently own:

WAF post.


Wait ... yours has only one soldier stamp. Same stuff, though: same text, same stamp, same chemical warfare pouch; sorry.


[Edit: no, this is the exact one that Oceansider posted. When you first posted your flag, you had it back to front so that the stamps did not show. When you posted the correct orientation, we could clearly see the stamps. If you had posted the stamped side first, we could have told you right away this was a fake.]

[manayunkman]

It is the same flag, pouch and translation.

The translation was done many years ago it’s not current.

If the translation was done by Cupman it would be correct.

I think it’s a translation for another flag no longer in the veterans estate.

The soldier stamp on my flag is different and more detailed than the one shown on gunboard.

I got the flag from oceansider.

If anyone has substantiated proof that this is a Cupman please bring it forward.

[GHP]

I'm glad you are satisfied with your acquisition.

another that looks suspiciously like yours. Some different groupings ... but essentially from the same workshop.




-- Guy

[Rod G]

This may be your "Groundhog Day" flag Guy.

What I don't get is...

If Oceansider knew his flag was a fake...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?t=1037743

how come Manayunkman appears to be in the dark?

I take it the change in ownership involved a certain sum of money?

Did someone forget to pass along the relevant information?

This may be unfair to say but something seems amiss to me and without better information I'm assuming we've just witnessed a game of hot fake potato.

[manayunkman]

All I saw is what Eric Queen had to say on USMF.

Oceansider never mentioned the thread on this forum.

I trusted Eric’s appraisal.

Did the Japanese use a stamp like the one on my flag or is it a Cupman fantasy.

Though similar the stamp on my flag is different.

I never said i was satisfied with my purchase.

[GHP]

...Did the Japanese use a stamp like the one on my flag or is it a Cupman fantasy....

Though similar the stamp on my flag is different.

I do not who had them made up, but the fact that they show up *only* on "cupman specials" make them suspicious (that's me being polite).

The stamping on both flags is from the same stamp, differences due to amount of ink, what is below the flag when stamped, etc. I'm sure you've used rubber stamps at work, etc. You often get different impressions depending on amount of ink, pressure, angle, etc.


-- Guy


I also want to point out the other stamp 水杳 that is only seen on "cupman specials". Compare yours to that other one I pulled from Warrelics.eu.


Additionally, your stamping is clearer because you are showing a photo of the obverse. The photo I'm comparing it with is from the *reverse* side of another flag, but I flipped the image horizontally to be able to read the kanji; you are seeing the 'bleed through.'

[GHP]

Further Notes for Cautious Buyers

Also note that in each corner of *both* flags is that four-line blurb beginning with a unit designation beginning with 陸軍第三〇九三師団. Operational Security measures would preclude anyone from identifying a unit with such specificity.

Also, both flags have the Showa 19 date on the right margin .... same template.


-- Guy

[manayunkman]

So Cupman is the only person since the 1930s to have used this stamp?

[manayunkman]

Oceansider agrees with Eric Queen that the flag is genuine.

The appraisal that the flag is fake is an opinion.

I’m trying to get beyond opinion to fact if possible.