Two Signed Japanese Silk Flags For Regiewee

[manayunkman]

Here are two signed Japanese flags.

Opinions pleae

[manayunkman]

Any conversation would be appreciated.

[rabbit indy]

Hello,


First, with regard to the first flag, the direction is wrong. Many characters are written, but I tried translating it into English in two places.


　　陸軍第3067師団本部？司令官（?=I can't read a single character)
　　
=Army 3067 Division Headquarters Commander


　　陸軍第3093師団本部？司令長官(?=I can't read a single character)

=Army 3093 Division Headquarters Commander

[rabbit indy]

陸軍第三〇九三師団？（I can not read single character)
連合軍用

=Army 3093 Division, for the Allied Forces ?


I think there was no division with a four-digit number in the Japanese Army.
Maybe this flag was sold as a souvenir after the war.
I think the letters were written by Japanese.
I think that the same person is writing, because the handwriting of all letters is the same.

[GHP]

Any conversation would be appreciated.

I was putting this off to read others' comments. If you are looking at buying these, I'd save my money and wait for a "one-looker."

Flag 1. I do not like this one (you're showing the reverse side).

• It is all done by the same hand and it's not really in the "style" normally seen. I think it could be a so-called "SeaBee Special."
• All kanji are in a realtively small style with no big BOLD calligraphy that you see on your second flag.
• On the far right border is the date Showa 19th Year. Why???
• 3:00 o'clock: 武運長久 "Bu'un Chōukyū". Reads top-bottom, right-left
• Top: 大亜戦争 "Great East Asian War" (this is normally where a main maxim like Bu'un Chōukyū would go.
• 9:00 o'clock: 神社国任. Doesn't make sense if follows the format of the 4th bullet above at 3 o'clock. This makes more sense as 国任神社 "National Obligation Shrine," but I cannot find that shrine on a Google search.
• Corners: 陸軍萬三〇 Rikugun Manzō 〇. Is that supposed to be a name???? Literally it means "Army 10030" Why is this "name"??? at each of the four corners? Weird (to me).

Flag 2. Although the kanji are correct and have good balance and follow proper stroke-order .... something seems fishy to me.

• Why is the dedication on the left side of the flag, usually it's on the right side. This is not a disqualifier ... but it's not 'normal.'
• Named to 国定安太郎君 Mr. Kunisada Yasutarō. A more proficient calligrapher would have made the kanji smaller to fit 君 on the same line.
• Right margin. 武運長久 "Bu'un Chōukyū" Continued luck in the fortunes of war. Looks okay.
• Left side of meatball. 表清作 "Make [your] Outside/surface Clean." I cannot find anything on Google or the online dictionaries. Not a disqualifier as many sayings are cryptic to non-native readers. I do not like that the calligrapher curved the kanji around the circle, but that's just me.
• 祝征途 Congratulations on your [military] Expedition. Strange location on the flag to place this.

-- Guy

[GHP]

Rabbit Indy,


Good analysis, thanks!! What do you make of the second flag? Do any of my concerns seem valid to you?


-- Guy

[rabbit indy]

Hello Guy,



It is wonderful work to analyze all the characters on the two flags and translate them into English.

When I saw the letters on the first flag, the writings were all the same, so I thought it was a souvenir for American soldiers after the war, so I stopped deciphering everything.

I think your analysis of the second flag is perfect.
I definitely think this flag is real.
I am Japanese, but you are better at analyzing Japanese.



yoshiyuki

[GHP]

Hello Guy,
It is wonderful work to analyze all the characters on the two flags and translate them into English.

When I saw the letters on the first flag, the writings were all the same, so I thought it was a souvenir for American soldiers after the war, so I stopped deciphering everything.

I think your analysis of the second flag is perfect.
I definitely think this flag is real.
I am Japanese, but you are better at analyzing Japanese.
yoshiyuki

Thank you, Yoshiyuki-san. I would never claim to be good at analysis -- some things I can do, others ... I cannot.

We all rely on native-level readers like *you* to help out because Japanese is .... not like German!!! (^__^) Too many nuances, etc.

I look forward to learning more from *your* analyses.


By the way, what is a good explanation for 表清作? I cannot find it in dictionaries or Google.

Regards,
-- Guy

[rabbit indy]

表清作 is Omote Seisaku.
Omote seisaku is a person's name.
He wrote his name near Kunisada Yasutarou（国定安太郎）,
so I think he's probably a friend of Mr. Kunisada, or someone close to him.

Yoshiyuki

[GHP]

表清作 is Omote Seisaku.
Omote seisaku is a person's name.
He wrote his name near Kunisada Yasutarou（国定安太郎）,
so I think he's probably a friend of Mr. Kunisada, or someone close to him.

Yoshiyuki

Thank you very much!

[manayunkman]

Both of these flags came from the veterans family.

He was an officer in the aviation engineers and served in the Philippines.

They were both on USMF when they surfaced.

Eric Queen was able to figure out which shrine the flag originated from.

The site is temporarily down so I can’t refer to it.

I currently own them.

Thank you for all the information.

[Rod G]

Kudos to Guy and Yoshiyuki for doing all the heavy lifting.

I agree with Yoshiyuki that perhaps the top flag in the first post is a Seabee product from its construction, ties, material and the way the kanji are wtitten. I'm guessing it's smaller than the lower flag too. Is that right?

Thanks for sharing!

[manayunkman]

If I remember correctly Eric Queen translated it as military district.

The shrine was in same district and gave these flags to the soldiers.

Before Queen got involved several others attributed the flag to the CBs.

Queen suggested that it wasn’t the case and that the shrine made the flags and presented them.

[GHP]

I know that Eric is fluent in Japanese (and I love his Red Shines the Sun). But I think that Yoshiyuki-san's fluency tops Eric's. Yoshiyuki-san did say he believes the flag was written by a Japanese ... but there were elements that gave him concern.

I'd like to know which shirine produced these flags as I do not see a shrine stamp; the only thing related to a shrine is that part on the 9 o'clock section I previously mentioned:

9:00 o'clock: 神社国任. Doesn't make sense if follows the format of the 4th bullet above at 3 o'clock. This makes more sense as 国任神社 "National Obligation Shrine," but I cannot find that shrine on a Google search.

Can you please post an image of just this section, with the wrinkle smoothed out? I could have misread the 任 kanji.


-- Guy

[manayunkman]

More pictures with Queens exact words.