M17 S.i.66 - Near Mint and Complete

[Hoss]

Hi Chuck
But it was a late rivet job?
Chuck that helmet was nice but hardly an Adler quality job, dont worry mate there be others.

Eric

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Robb
I was watching but at that price, to much man. Only later did I realize it was the helmet Chuck was interested in. $270+ for the chinstrap. Is that a record?

Eric

I think the record is just over 500 dollars for a chin strap I was bidding on with Ebay. I was outbid at 500 bucks. This was a year ago. I bid that amount thinking I'd win it for well under. I hope the winner liked his silly chin strap LOL

W.

[C. Roelens]

Hi Chuck
But it was a late rivet job?
Chuck that helmet was nice but hardly an Adler quality job, dont worry mate there be others.

Eric

Eric,

Yes, it was a late war riveted chinstrap, but none the less, it is an original. Finding any complete original M16 leather chinstrap in good condition is getting tough to do. I'm over the helmet... I still don't like the liner, and the two odd liner pins/rivets. Now... back to the eggnog...

Chuck

[C. Roelens]

I think the record is just over 500 dollars for a chin strap I was bidding on with Ebay. I was outbid at 500 bucks. This was a year ago. I bid that amount thinking I'd win it for well under. I hope the winner liked his silly chin strap LOL

W.

I remember that auction. I think it was a big name dealer that sold it. I guess some people think they're getting something extra special because it comes from a big name.

Chuck

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Eric,

Yes, it was a late war riveted chinstrap, but none the less, it is an original. Finding any complete original M16 leather chinstrap in good condition is getting tough to do. I'm over the helmet... I still don't like the liner, and the two odd liner pins/rivets. Now... back to the eggnog...

Chuck

Chin straps..... I am actually out of the market for another M16 chin strap. I have too many reproductions that were put onto the original hardware that came with my original helmets. I could replace the straps with originals but then the hardware that was original to the helmets I have would be sidelined and maybe lost or I'd forget what went with what.

Did anyone see the nice camo on E stand minus liner and liner pins? Really nice but I don't buy camo's without the pins anymore.

W.

[C. Roelens]

Chin straps..... I am actually out of the market for another M16 chin strap. I have too many reproductions that were put onto the original hardware that came with my original helmets. I could replace the straps with originals but then the hardware that was original to the helmets I have would be sidelined and maybe lost or I'd forget what went with what.

Did anyone see the nice camo on E stand minus liner and liner pins? Really nice but I don't buy camo's without the pins anymore.

W.

are you referring to the Q66 with thin black divider lines?

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Pretty sure that is the one yes Chuck.

[C. Roelens]

Pretty sure that is the one yes Chuck.

Had that one in my hands also. It's an excellent original camo, with an equally excellent selling price attached to it. It also had a very thin coating of varnish or something applied to the outside of the shell. Most likely vet applied after the war. Periodically, you'll find both U.S. and German steel helmets like this.

Chuck

[Hoss]

Was that the one with like two pale camo colors?
Did you guy,s also see that beautiful M16, sold about a week ago. Mint liner. Didnt sell first time around because the starting bid was $600.
Also how did Camo1916,s latest lid do, I saw it but deleted and forgot about it?
Sorry gents I talk too much. I,ve noticed there,s a bit of helmet buying frenzy going on out there. Where,s this recession?

Eric

[Hans K.]

Eric,

Yes, it was a late war riveted chinstrap, but none the less, it is an original.

Chuck

IMO these aren't late war. The only riveted chinstraps I've seen so far have had brass fittings. I think these fall into the late 1914 to early 1915 period when riveting seems to have been widely used instead of sewing on equipment to speed up production and keep up with mobilization. I've seen this with ammo pouches, Beilpicke carriers, belt buckle tabs, water bottle straps, etc - all dated 1915. I also recall riveted chinstraps turning up quite often on ersatz Pickelhauben.

I haven't been following eBay since my last big purchase, and it sounds like I've been missing out on some nice helmets.

[C. Roelens]

IMO these aren't late war. The only riveted chinstraps I've seen so far have had brass fittings. I think these fall into the late 1914 to early 1915 period when riveting seems to have been widely used instead of sewing on equipment to speed up production and keep up with mobilization. I've seen this with ammo pouches, Beilpicke carriers, belt buckle tabs, water bottle straps, etc - all dated 1915. I also recall riveted chinstraps turning up quite often on ersatz Pickelhauben.

I haven't been following eBay since my last big purchase, and it sounds like I've been missing out on some nice helmets.

Thanks Hans... I stand corrected. Were they used on the initial production of the M16 steel helmet with the M16 liner system? I thought those chinstraps were all sewn with zinc coated steel hardware. I've only encountered the riveted chinstraps with all brass hardware later on attached to helmets with the M17 liner system.

Chuck

[C. Roelens]

Was that the one with like two pale camo colors?
Did you guy,s also see that beautiful M16, sold about a week ago. Mint liner. Didnt sell first time around because the starting bid was $600.
Also how did Camo1916,s latest lid do, I saw it but deleted and forgot about it?
Sorry gents I talk too much. I,ve noticed there,s a bit of helmet buying frenzy going on out there. Where,s this recession?

Eric

That camo did not sell...

[Hans K.]

Thanks Hans... I stand corrected. Were they used on the initial production of the M16 steel helmet with the M16 liner system? I thought those chinstraps were all sewn with zinc coated steel hardware. I've only encountered the riveted chinstraps with all brass hardware later on attached to helmets with the M17 liner system.

Chuck

Chuck, this is all just based on my observations. I think the whole thing has to be seen from the perspective of what was available at the time. Chinstraps with zinc coated steel hardware were introduced for the M15 Pickelhaube well before the Stahlhelm even came into production, so it's safe to assume that all production of brass hardware had ceased by then. Even so, any remaining stocks of straps w. brass fittings would still have been issued until used up.

My question is this - were the first helmets issued at the front supplied with the straps or were the soldiers receiving them expected to use their Pickelhaube strap? The steel helmet was designed to use the Pickelhaube chinstrap after all, so it seems logical to me that it was intended for the old straps to be removed and reused (if available) before the Pickelhaube was turned in. Many of these straps would certainly have had brass fittings, especially in the early stages of refitting.

From my experience, chinstraps with brass hardware appear frequently on steel helmets. As an example, 8 out of approx. 12 of the chinstraps original to their helmets in my collection have brass hardware, including every one of my M16 helmets and two M17s (one has just the remants). The remaining 4 or so with zinc coated steel hardware are on M17 helmets.

I should go through Baer's volumes again to see if any of this is covered. It's been a long time since I've read his books.

[Hoss]

Hans
Are you sure. I personally think your just as likely to find any type of chinstrap on a helmet. I,ve always considered 15 dated equipment late war. Thats why 12-14 or earlier dated is so rare and nice to find. The Germans, forgive me stripped the dead and seriously wounded and kept recycling and reworking everything. Today we find a lot of equipment 15-17 dated that obviously never saw use. Including papercloth items. Although something is stamped 1915 I consider it possibly used 1917-18.

Regards
Eric

[Hans K.]

Hans
Are you sure. I personally think your just as likely to find any type of chinstrap on a helmet. I,ve always considered 15 dated equipment late war. Thats why 12-14 or earlier dated is so rare and nice to find. The Germans, forgive me stripped the dead and seriously wounded and kept recycling and reworking everything. Today we find a lot of equipment 15-17 dated that obviously never saw use. Including papercloth items. Although something is stamped 1915 I consider it possibly used 1917-18.

Regards
Eric

Eric, I think we're on the same page regarding chinstraps.

I don't quite understand how 1915 dated items would be considered late war, especially in the context of what we were discussing earlier. Whether they were issued in '15 or '18 seems irrelevant to me.