2 M16 Camos on e stand

[90th Light]

Hello to all still reading,

lets not also lose sight about "Meyers" first camo in all of this.

Several experienced members have expressed concern about it while other members who may be just as experienced some of whom have had the helmet in hand have liked it.

I am interested in detailed reasons as to why the helmet,s paint/ camo is not correct and being told to go back and put together assumptions is not really a lot of help to me or Meyer.

Have no problem at all accepting if I have made a bad call but what are the reasons this helmet's camo is so wrong so we all can learn ???

Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Welcome back Hans. Damn nice helmet you show... having minimal wear if any, and, unquestionable!

Chuck

I agree un questionable and why? Because Liners from the period and even paint from the period, no matter what condition it is in has a certain look that cannot be duplicated. You can age things all you want but the aging does not look like the original stuff but it can mimic it to more or lesser degrees.

W.

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Chris,

And others for that matter. As we all know near 100 years has passed and in that time all manner of things can and did befall many helmets that were once un touched.

Let me float this theory and possibility. The museum sees one of their helmets has a messed up liner. An employee of the museum has a brother who works with animal skin and they fix the liner and store it back in the museum's storage room until the day it's suplused to the public.

Being liners of pig skin are so rare that could explain things. None of us were around when any of those helmets were painted and lined out.

As for cloth pads check this one out Chris...


William

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Also! I don't have any German Helmets in un issued condition but I have a US helmet I think was issued but saw very light use.

W.

[90th Light]

Chris,

And others for that matter. As we all know near 100 years has passed and in that time all manner of things can and did befall many helmets that were once un touched.

Let me float this theory and possibility. The museum sees one of their helmets has a messed up liner. An employee of the museum has a brother who works with animal skin and they fix the liner and store it back in the museum's storage room until the day it's suplused to the public.

Being liners of pig skin are so rare that could explain things. None of us were around when any of those helmets were painted and lined out.

As for cloth pads check this one out Chris...


William

Hello William,

what you say here is rational and I agree that has to be one possibility and in the light of how unusual this liner would appear to be then this is certainly worthy of more investigation.

The museums records are pretty good however and to be honest impressive. This was no small hick museum. It is one attached to a university with university qualified personal working at all the appropriate levels so they had noted carefully what had been done to their items over the years both those on display and in storage. They also had many treasures from the ancient world such as Mummies and others way beyond that so they were professional in what they were doing. Some of their collections are among the best in the southern hemisphere so hence why there was no room for nasty WW1 war stuff which was a real shame in my opinion. Time to start taking the 20th Century a little more seriously which some museums are not.

Of course may be that the helmet was not deemed to be important enough by the museum to note conservation or alteration but if that was the case then why replace the original liner or what was left of it ??? Would be more in their interests to leave it damaged or rotting and just stabilise its storage conditions.

There were no notes about a new liner that I saw also I know for a fact that they could get vegetable tanned or chrome tanned leather from a tannery not far from them. When that tannery closed down in the 1980's they had original Imperial German pebble grain plates for pressing that pattern into leather. I was amazed. Just the same as one of the yards which fixed shafts in boats had an Imperial German navy lathe still with its official designations and markings on it. Even more amazing for a Militaria buff like me.

If the museum did replace the liner then why did they copy the stamps of a "BKA" depot which had distributed/ replaced the liner. Would they go to that much trouble for something not on display and one of several they owned. The helmet was not seen as a great treasure by them. In fact it was never really wanted given the growing pacifist movement in New Zealand during the 1920's which protested about the war monuments being built all over New Zealand at the time and wanted the German guns placed at the bottom of such moments removed from the public eye esp. in the light of how many families had suffered more than one loss in the war and or in the immediate years after. (for example my own grandfather now very bitter and a cripple from the Somme 1916)

Also I have had an email from a member who collects Luger holsters, he has told me that a pig skin Imperial German Luger holster is a hard one to find but they certainly made them from pig skin and they are a very desirable item. In fact he specialises a bit in pig skin holsters and sees no reason why a helmet liner could not be made from it during the war. Surprised he states that they did not use it more often.

Pig skin was being used in limited amounts but it does not appear to be commonly used by the Germans in WW1 which has now got me wondering why not given their leather shortages. This begs the question is this a rare example of a pig skin liner in a German WW1 helmet ??? ( less likely but could it be some other type of grade two leather ???)

but keeping an open mind on this it also begs the question, do we ever see reproduction WW1 helmet liners made from pig skin ??? Given the reaction here, a faker would almost be wasting their time would they not ???

Your web lining is just as interesting and has the same questions, original period oddity, post war made by another country or reproduction. What ever it is it is very interesting to say the least.

Thanks for posting,

Chris

p.s. that is one nice US helmet. Believe it or not WW1 British helmets are a lot harder to find here in NZ than German examples and one in that condition very, very hard indeed. I like it very much.

[PlaceOfBayonets]

I had a reproduction M16 liner made of Pigskin so they do exist. I'd think that would not have been done if originals had not been done but I've never seen one that was original. Just the facts as I know them.

Also possible your pigskin pads are good and was an off the cuff substitute of some sort. My cloth pads were discussed and no one can say they were made in any numbers at all and that it might be a case of a factory worker's own inititive or an experiment of some sort. Could even be private purchass. NO one knows. We all seemd to think that the bloth pads seem original to WWI.

As for your pigskin pads there may be one way to tell. Post photos of the liner pins. Were they ever pulled? If no then post photos or examine the stitching that connects them to the liner band. Does it look un molested? Is yes then the pigskin liner is more plausable. If anything is out of place it might be back to the drawing board.

With my cloth liner pads I saw that the stiching was clearly original and the liner band had never been pulled post war.

Here is a pigskin reproduction liner schipper fabrik sold them.

W.

[90th Light]

I had a reproduction M16 liner made of Pigskin so they do exist. I'd think that would not have been done if originals had not been done but I've never seen one that was original. Just the facts as I know them.

Also possible your pigskin pads are good and was an off the cuff substitute of some sort. My cloth pads were discussed and no one can say they were made in any numbers at all and that it might be a case of a factory worker's own inititive or an experiment of some sort. Could even be private purchass. NO one knows. We all seemd to think that the bloth pads seem original to WWI.

As for your pigskin pads there may be one way to tell. Post photos of the liner pins. Were they ever pulled? If no then post photos or examine the stitching that connects them to the liner band. Does it look un molested? Is yes then the pigskin liner is more plausable. If anything is out of place it might be back to the drawing board.

With my cloth liner pads I saw that the stiching was clearly original and the liner band had never been pulled post war.

Here is a pigskin reproduction liner schipper fabrik sold them.

W.

Thanks William,

again you raise some good and thought out points

the liner in my helmet does not seem to be something seen before by those here who have handled a lot of these helmets so it is certainly an odd ball to say the least but then as your web liner also shows, odd balls can pop up and can not always be explained.

Will look at those points and areas that you mention on my liner & arrange to post more images when time permits. The helmet has however been a depot refurbished one so would they re-use the existing pins or apply new ones ? My experience of the Germans to date is that they wasted as little as they could and would always utilise something if still useable.

The picture of the reproduction liner you have posted is very interesting and that does answer one of my questions and shows me that repro liners have been made of pig skin for sure.

Thank you again for taking the time to do this and like my questions about the camo on Mayer's first helmet, I too want to learn more about these. In fact I am enjoying getting back into them after quite a few years away from them. A friend has just rung me and asked me if I want to buy the very first camo I ever saw as a child which use to hang on the back wall of a second hand/ brick-brac shop and was never for sale at the time. All the kids wanted to buy it of course. We bid against each other to try and get it many years later when the shop closed down & its remaining contents sold off at auction. He was keener than me then but does not want it any longer so that will be a special one to get for me.

Other things take over in life for a while but the interest just never seems to go away,

Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Thanks William,

again you raise some good and thought out points

the liner in my helmet does not seem to be something seen before by those here who have handled a lot of these helmets so it is certainly an odd ball to say the least but then as your web liner also shows, odd balls can pop up and can not always be explained.

Will look at those points and areas that you mention on my liner & arrange to post more images when time permits. The helmet has however been a depot refurbished one so would they re-use the existing pins or apply new ones ? My experience of the Germans to date is that they wasted as little as they could and would always utilise something if still useable.

The picture of the reproduction liner you have posted is very interesting and that does answer one of my questions and shows me that repro liners have been made of pig skin for sure.

Thank you again for taking the time to do this and like my questions about the camo on Mayer's first helmet, I too want to learn more about these. In fact I am enjoying getting back into them after quite a few years away from them. A friend has just rung me and asked me if I want to buy the very first camo I ever saw as a child which use to hang on the back wall of a second hand/ brick-brac shop and was never for sale at the time. All the kids wanted to buy it of course. We bid against each other to try and get it many years later when the shop closed down & its remaining contents sold off at auction. He was keener than me then but does not want it any longer so that will be a special one to get for me.

Other things take over in life for a while but the interest just never seems to go away,

Chris

Ohhhhh Chris! I too used to see a camo M16/17 in an old gun store that was on display as a kid. I always wanted that one but it was not for sale and I thought was so rare if it was that it would run 5000 or more dollars in the early 80's. I had no idea you could reasonably own WWI helmets till after I got on Ebay after 2001.

But I try from time to time to locate the owners of the store that since closed many years ago. If it was ever for sale I'd take out a loan to own it. I know how you feel. When you get the helmet post photos.

W.

[90th Light]

Ohhhhh Chris! I too used to see a camo M16/17 in an old gun store that was on display as a kid. I always wanted that one but it was not for sale and I thought was so rare if it was that it would run 5000 or more dollars in the early 80's. I had no idea you could reasonably own WWI helmets till after I got on Ebay after 2001.

But I try from time to time to locate the owners of the store that since closed many years ago. If it was ever for sale I'd take out a loan to own it. I know how you feel. When you get the helmet post photos.

W.

Yes William,

memories are made of this and it is funny what sticks in ones mind as to what they saw and should have bought a long the way or would have if they could have or had their time over again.

I have never bought a helmet off ebay yet and have got mine ones to date locally years ago. Have had a look at ebay however & came to conclusion that it was a case of "the good, the bad and the ugly" hence why reading through the threads here about these now is more than just interesting.

Yes I will post it but I will not have it until his next vist and he is in another part of the country to me so it will not be straight away.

All the best, Chris

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Adding photo

Don't write off Ebay for WWI helmets. Unlike WWII there is no ban and good ones show up every other week. Outstanding ones every two or three months.

I got 4 of mine from ebay. The rest from WAF members or their web sites.

[90th Light]

Don't write off Ebay for WWI helmets. Unlike WWII there is no ban and good ones show up every other week. Outstanding ones every two or three months.

I got 4 of mine from ebay. The rest from WAF members or their web sites.

Hello again William,

no I was not writing it off but I am reading all that is here before I venture on and touching base with other collectors plus a case of not really having the room for more.

You have got some very nice examples there to say the least and I like the flag too which is another area I am interested in.

Very good collecting, Chris